Match of programmes.

[Krzychumag]

I am inviting cordially to the match Kingsrow International – Dragon Draughts (Freeware version). The entire match consisted of 6 parties . A match was played on separate computers with the system Windows 7 Ultimate PL 64 – bit with 8 GB of the memory of frames. Time for the party - 30 minutes for 80 moves. Scoring of the match - for won party 1 point, for the draw 0.5 point, for the defeat of 0 points. A match was played in Poland in Kornik (Kórnik) in day 23.10.2011r., author of the match - Christopher Grzelak - Krzysztof Grzelak. I am inviting cordially to the match.


PARTY FIRST

Kingsrow International 1.51b - Dragon Draughts 4
Debut: debut French
Result: ½ - ½
Time: 30 minutes for 80 moves
Party: 1
Date: 23.10.2011
Place: Kórnik - Poland

1. 34-30 20-25 2. 32-28 25x34 3. 39x30 16-21 4. 44-39 21-26 5. 50-44 15-20 6. 37-32 26x37 7. 42x31 17-21 8. 40-34 21-26 9. 32-27 26x37 10. 41x32 11-17 11. 46-41 19-23 12. 28x19 14x23 13. 30-25 6-11 14. 25x14 10x19 15. 35-30 5-10 16. 41-37 10-14 17. 30-24 19x30 18. 34x25 13-19 19. 33-29 23x34 20. 39x30 17-22 21. 48-42 22x31 22. 36x27 19-23 23. 38-33 11-17 24. 33-28 4-10 25. 28x19 14x23 26. 44-39 8-13 27. 39-33 2-8 28. 42-38 17-22 29. 47-42 22x31 30. 37x26 10-15 31. 49-44 12-17 32. 32-28 23x32 33. 38x27 7-12 34. 42-38 1-7 35. 45-40 18-22 36. 27x18 12x23 37. 40-35 9-14 38. 38-32 15-20 39. 44-39 13-19 40. 43-38 20-24 41. 32-27 7-11 42. 27-22 17x28 43. 33x22 11-16 44. 39-34 8-13 45. 38-33 3-8 46. 34-29 23x34 47. 30x39 19-23 48. 39-34 8-12 49. 22-17 12x21 50. 26x17 13-18 51. 34-30 14-19 52. 17-12 18x7 53. 33-29 23x34 54. 30x39 7-12 55. 39-34 12-18 56. 35-30 24x35 57. 25-20 18-23 58. 20-15 19-24 59. 34-30 16-21 60. 30x28 35-40 61. 28-23 40-45 62. 23-19 21-27 63. 19-14 1/2-1/2


PARTY SECOND


Dragon Draughts 4 - Kingsrow International 1.51b
Debut: debut Springer'a
Result: 0-1
Time: 30 minutes for 80 moves
Party: 2
Date: 23.10.2011
Place: Kórnik - Poland

1. 31-26 20-24 2. 36-31 14-20 3. 41-36 20-25 4. 31-27 10-14 5. 46-41 15-20 6. 34-30 25x34 7. 40x29 5-10 8. 29-23 18x29 9. 35-30 24x35 10. 33x15 17-22 11. 27x18 12x23 12. 45-40 11-17 13. 32-27 19-24 14. 37-31 14-19 15. 27-22 17x28 16. 26-21 16x27 17. 31x33 13-18 18. 36-31 10-14 19. 31-27 6-11 20. 40-34 11-17 21. 41-37 8-12 22. 37-31 2-8 23. 31-26 8-13 24. 27-21 7-11 25. 21-16 1-7 26. 42-37 23-29 27. 34x23 19x28 28. 33x22 17x28 29. 38-33 12-17 30. 33x22 17x28 31. 47-42 24-29 32. 42-38 29-34 33. 39x30 35x24 34. 44-39 14-19 35. 50-44 11-17 36. 44-40 18-23 37. 38-33 17-22 38. 43-38 9-14 39. 26-21 3-8 40. 48-43 8-12 41. 49-44 14-20 42. 21-17 22x11 43. 33x22 20-25 44. 40-35 24-29 45. 39-33 19-24 46. 37-31 29-34 47. 33-28 23x32 48. 38x27 12-18 49. 31-26 7-12 50. 16x7 12x1 51. 26-21 24-29 52. 22-17 34-40 53. 15-10 40x38 54. 10-5 38-42 55. 17-11 42-48 56. 5-32 29-34 57. 21-17 34-39 58. 32-49 48-37 59. 27-22 18x27 60. 49x16 37-42 61. 17-12 13-18 62. 12x23 39-44 63. 11-6 25-30 64. 35x24 42x20 65. 23-19 44-50 66. 19-13 20-3 67. 16-27 50-33 68. 27-32 33-24 69. 32-19 24-35 70. 19-14 3x20 71. 13-8 35x2 0-1


PARTY THIRD


Kingsrow International 1.51b - Dragon Draughts 4
Debut: debut Fabre
Result: ½ - ½
Time: 30 minutes for 80 moves
Party: 3
Date: 23.10.2011
Place: Kórnik - Poland

1. 34-29 17-22 2. 31-26 11-17 3. 36-31 6-11 4. 41-36 19-23 5. 32-27 23x34 6. 39x30 14-19 7. 30-25 19-23 8. 25x14 10x19 9. 35-30 15-20 10. 44-39 5-10 11. 30-25 10-15 12. 25x14 19x10 13. 33-29 23x34 14. 39x30 13-19 15. 30-25 19-23 16. 46-41 10-14 17. 38-33 1-6 18. 42-38 14-19 19. 49-44 19-24 20. 47-42 8-13 21. 33-29 24x33 22. 38x29 23x34 23. 40x29 15-20 24. 25x14 9x20 25. 37-32 13-19 26. 41-37 19-23 27. 44-39 23x34 28. 39x30 20-25 29. 32-28 25x34 30. 43-38 22x33 31. 38x40 18-22 32. 27x18 12x23 33. 37-32 2-8 34. 50-44 8-13 35. 44-39 23-28 36. 32x23 16-21 37. 23-19 13x24 38. 42-38 21-27 39. 31x22 17x28 40. 48-42 7-12 41. 42-37 12-18 42. 36-31 4-10 43. 26-21 11-16 44. 21-17 18-22 45. 38-32 22x11 46. 32x23 11-17 47. 37-32 24-30 48. 31-27 30-35 49. 40-34 17-21 50. 34-29 10-14 51. 29-24 21-26 52. 24-19 14-20 53. 19-13 6-11 54. 39-33 11-17 55. 23-19 20-24 56. 19x30 35x24 57. 45-40 16-21 58. 27x16 26-31 59. 40-34 31-36 60. 32-28 36-41 61. 28-23 17-22 62. 16-11 41-46 63. 13-9 3x14 64. 34-29 46x19 65. 29x9 19-8 66. 9-4 8-2 67. 4x31 2x16 68. 33-29 1/2-1/2


PARTY FOURTH


Dragon Draughts 4 - Kingsrow International 1.51b
Debut: debut Raphaell'a
Result: 0-1
Time: 30 minutes for 80 moves
Party: 4
Date: 23.10.2011
Place: Kórnik - Poland

1. 32-28 17-21 2. 37-32 20-25 3. 41-37 21-26 4. 31-27 11-17 5. 27-22 18x27 6. 32x21 16x27 7. 37-31 26x37 8. 42x11 6x17 9. 28-23 19x28 10. 33x11 7x16 11. 36-31 16-21 12. 31-26 14-19 13. 26x17 12x21 14. 46-41 15-20 15. 39-33 10-14 16. 44-39 13-18 17. 34-29 9-13 18. 40-34 19-24 19. 38-32 5-10 20. 50-44 4-9 21. 43-38 10-15 22. 45-40 18-22 23. 32-28 22-27 24. 28-23 21-26 25. 48-42 27-31 26. 41-37 13-18 27. 23x12 8x17 28. 38-32 9-13 29. 32-28 13-18 30. 37-32 31-36 31. 42-37 17-21 32. 28-23 2-7 33. 23x12 7x18 34. 32-28 18-22 35. 28x17 21x12 36. 49-43 3-8 37. 43-38 12-17 38. 38-32 17-21 39. 32-28 21-27 40. 28-23 14-19 41. 23x14 20x9 42. 29x20 15x24 43. 47-42 27-32 44. 37x28 36-41 45. 42-37 41x23 46. 33-28 23x32 47. 34-29 24x33 48. 39x37 8-13 49. 40-34 9-14 50. 34-29 14-20 51. 44-39 1-7 52. 29-23 7-12 53. 39-34 12-17 54. 37-32 26-31 55. 23-18 13x22 56. 32-27 22-28 57. 27x36 17-22 58. 36-31 28-33 59. 31-26 22-27 60. 34-29 33x24 61. 35-30 24x35 62. 26-21 27x16 0-1


PARTY FIFTH

Kingsrow International 1.51b - Dragon Draughts 4
Debut: debut French
Result: 1-0
Time: 30 minutes for 80 moves
Party: 5
Date: 23.10.2011
Place: Kórnik - Poland

1. 34-30 17-22 2. 30-25 12-17 3. 40-34 7-12 4. 31-27 22x31 5. 37x26 19-23 6. 41-37 13-19 7. 46-41 1-7 8. 36-31 9-13 9. 41-36 19-24 10. 45-40 4-9 11. 31-27 14-19 12. 25x14 9x20 13. 50-45 10-14 14. 34-29 23x34 15. 39x30 17-22 16. 36-31 11-17 17. 30-25 3-9 18. 43-39 5-10 19. 47-41 24-29 20. 33x24 20x29 21. 48-43 18-23 22. 27x18 13x22 23. 41-36 22-28 24. 40-34 29x40 25. 45x34 17-21 26. 26x17 12x21 27. 34-29 23x34 28. 32x23 19x28 29. 39x30 9-13 30. 31-26 7-11 31. 26x17 11x22 32. 38-32 13-19 33. 32x23 19x28 34. 42-38 8-13 35. 30-24 13-18 36. 38-32 18-23 37. 44-39 16-21 38. 24-19 21-26 39. 19-13 6-11 40. 35-30 11-16 41. 43-38 16-21 42. 49-44 22-27 43. 30-24 26-31 44. 37x17 28x37 45. 38-32 37x28 46. 17-11 28-32 47. 11-6 32-37 48. 6-1 14-19 49. 1x29 19x30 50. 25x34 27-31 51. 36x27 37-41 52. 29-23 41-47 53. 23x5 47-36 54. 27-21 36x9 55. 5-23 15-20 56. 21-16 20-24 57. 23-10 24-29 58. 34x23 9-31 59. 39-34 31-48 60. 44-39 48-31 61. 10-15 2-7 62. 15-4 31-42 63. 4-18 42-26 64. 18x1 26-3 65. 1-6 3-26 66. 23-18 26-37 67. 18-12 37-41 68. 12-7 41-32 69. 7-1 32-49 70. 39-33 49-35 71. 1-18 35-30 72. 34x25 1-0


PARTY SIXTH


Dragon Draughts 4 - Kingsrow International 1.51b
Debut: debut Polish
Result: ½ - ½
Time: 30 minutes for 80 moves
Party: 6
Date: 23.10.2011
Place: Kórnik – Poland

1. 31-27 17-21 2. 37-31 19-23 3. 31-26 14-19 4. 26x17 11x31 5. 36x27 6-11 6. 41-37 10-14 7. 46-41 11-17 8. 33-28 5-10 9. 39-33 1-6 10. 41-36 20-25 11. 37-31 14-20 12. 44-39 10-14 13. 42-37 17-22 14. 28x17 12x21 15. 33-28 21-26 16. 39-33 20-24 17. 43-39 14-20 18. 49-43 8-12 19. 47-42 3-8 20. 27-22 18x27 21. 31x22 16-21 22. 34-30 25x34 23. 40x18 12x23 24. 50-44 6-11 25. 33-29 24x33 26. 38x18 11-17 27. 22x11 13x33 28. 39x28 7x16 29. 28-23 19x28 30. 32x23 4-10 31. 35-30 9-13 32. 30-25 10-14 33. 44-39 8-12 34. 39-33 2-8 35. 45-40 20-24 36. 43-38 13-18 37. 33-29 24x33 38. 38x29 8-13 39. 42-38 13-19 40. 38-32 19x28 41. 32x23 18-22 42. 40-34 12-17 43. 23-19 14x23 44. 29x27 21x41 45. 36x47 16-21 46. 34-29 21-27 47. 29-24 26-31 48. 25-20 27-32 49. 20-14 32-37 50. 14-9 31-36 51. 24-19 17-21 52. 9-3 21-26 53. 3-14 37-41 54. 14-5 26-31 55. 48-43 31-37 56. 43-38 37-42 57. 19-13 42x33 58. 5x46 33-38 59. 13-8 38-43 60. 8-3 43-49 61. 3-9 15-20 62. 9x25 49-44 63. 25-20 44-50 64. 46-41 50-45 1/2-1/2


Match finished. Won programme Kingsrow International , great congratulations for Edgar Gilbert and for Michel Grimminck for one's programme.


From respect
Grzelak Krzysztof.

[Ed Gilbert]

Krzysztof, I hope you were able to automate this match with DamExchange. It would be a lot of work to play these out manually.

I usually play much quicker games between programs, because it allows more games, and more decisive games. Draughts is such a drawn game that most games between programs will be draws. By playing quicker games the programs make more mistakes. But I'm not sure what your objective is.

-- Ed

[Krzychumag]

Already shortly will play parties 5 - 10 minute's Ed. In this what write is a lot of right - what less time this more errors. What to DamExchange never yet so not play. I have such question - or to DamExchange necessary is internet. I ask oneself because never earlier not had to deal with from DamExchange. It or was can connect two computers one cable for help DamExchange and play among two programmes - without need of internetu.

-- Krzysztof

[MichelG]

Congratz ed Please note that the tournament version plays a lot stronger than the downloadable version, becauses it uses some tables that are to big to make available through download.

You can play dragon with DamExchange between 2 computers, as long as they are in the same network. You don't need internet to do that.

Michel

[Krzychumag]

It thanks for information Michel. Michel and where from it is possible to take versions tournament of program for playing with other program. Please write how to connect two computers without connecting with the Internet.

Krzysztof.

[Ed Gilbert]

Congratz ed :-) Please note that the tournament version plays a lot stronger than the downloadable version, becauses it uses some tables that are to big to make available through download.

You can play dragon with DamExchange between 2 computers, as long as they are in the same network. You don't need internet to do that.

Michel

Michel, no doubt kingsrow was using a much larger endgame database, so dragon was at a disadvantage.

Today I downloaded dragon and tried to set up a DXP match with kingsrow, but ran into several difficulties. I first tried to establish a connection by setting dragon to "Wait for other program to connect" and initiated the connection from kingsrow. It connected but then immediately the connection was closed. I then reversed the process and let kingsrow listen for connection requests and told dragon to "Connect to other program". This successfully established the connection. I then tried to start a match with kingsrow as Initiator. I have pasted the dxp window from dragon below:

R01Kingsrow 1.51b Z005075BZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzezzzezeeeewweeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
ADragon (32 bit, standaard) 0

Dragon is supposed to play the first move here, but it did not start searching or make a move. I saw in the help file that dragon does not accept arbitrary start positions, but as its board was correctly set up for this start position, I was hoping it would continue the match.

I tried using dragon as the Initiator. I set its time parameters to 75 moves in 5 minutes, and started a match by clicking the "Match" button. This started a game, and a few moves were correctly made by each side. But on each search dragon was using a very long time, approximately one minute. After dragon had made 6 moves it had already exceed its 5 minute game time limit. Kingsrow had used only 1 second since it was still playing from its opening book.

I have tried these same operations with dam2.2 vs. kingsrow, and that works, so I'm assuming these are problems with DXP in dragon, but maybe I'm doing something wrong. Can you try reproducing these setups using dam as the opponent?

-- Ed

[BertTuyt]

I appreciate these matches, but I guess that to provide a real measure for strength differences , the "standard" 158-games match is a limit value for any statistical significance (and sometimes even this number is too low).

In several matches against KingsRow, Damage has 2 won games and 8 draws after 10 games.
In the end KingsRow has always something like 16-20 wins...

Like the (previous) definition of footbal, a game between 2 opponents and in the end Germany wins

Bert

[Krzychumag]

I apologise but until the end I will disagree with you Bert. It tournament it then tournament everything can happen.

[BertTuyt]

So agree to disagree

Bert

[Krzychumag]

So agree to disagree

Bert

Very intelligent reply

[Ed Gilbert]

I appreciate these matches, but I guess that to provide a real measure for strength differences , the "standard" 158-games match is a limit value for any statistical significance (and sometimes even this number is too low).

I think 158 games is enough to show that one program is stronger than another when there is a significant difference in strength. For evaluating program changes that might be an incremental improvement, it is not nearly enough. I've been using 3-move openings (988 games), and then running 8 simultaneous matches on the 8-core machine, with time controls of 75moves/1min. Even with the 7904 games it is not enough to resolve small differences.

-- Ed

[Krzychumag]

I think 158 games is enough to show that one program is stronger than another when there is a significant difference in strength. For evaluating program changes that might be an incremental improvement, it is not nearly enough. I've been using 3-move openings (988 games), and then running 8 simultaneous matches on the 8-core machine, with time controls of 75moves/1min. Even with the 7904 games it is not enough to resolve small differences.

-- Ed

We not to end with this statement can oneself agree. With your thesis will agree oneself all programmers of programmes - know oneself mutually and respect. Differently he is looking on this usual man - for it him not is important these 158 games, and this how oneself programme makes a list in different tournaments and championships.