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Hanco Elenbaas
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Re: Achilles en Ajax

Post by Hanco Elenbaas » Mon May 24, 2004 20:50

Kosmos wrote:
Hanco Elenbaas wrote:
Kosmos wrote: Tzal wel demotiedammen of Ktardam zijn wat die opperwezens deden...
De Annunaki zijn geen opperwezens Tjalling.
Gelukkig niet!
Wel slimmer dan de mens toch?
Alleen nóg gemener, ba!
Vééééél gemener nog!
Zo gemeen en sluw dat mensen het niet voor mogelijk houden.

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Kosmos
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Re: Achilles en Ajax

Post by Kosmos » Mon May 24, 2004 20:58

Hanco Elenbaas wrote:
Kosmos wrote:
Hanco Elenbaas wrote: De Annunaki zijn geen opperwezens Tjalling.
Gelukkig niet!
Wel slimmer dan de mens toch?
Alleen nóg gemener, ba!
Vééééél gemener nog!
Zo gemeen en sluw dat mensen het niet voor mogelijk houden.
Waarom werken ze tegen de Vader?
Weten ze niet dat alles in de Kosmos 1 is?
Heaven is no location, but a state of mind

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Hanco Elenbaas
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Re: Achilles en Ajax

Post by Hanco Elenbaas » Mon May 24, 2004 21:41

Dat is een lang en gecompliceerd verhaal Tjalling.
Het eenvoudigst is het om te zeggen dat zij onderdeel zijn van het plan van Lucifer, de gevallen engel, in zijn verzet tegen God.

Ben Anoniem
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Post by Ben Anoniem » Tue May 25, 2004 00:08

Verzet?
Dat klinkt goed, zat Roozenburg niet ook in het verzet? Of juist niet?

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Kosmos
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Post by Kosmos » Tue May 25, 2004 00:18

Ben Anoniem wrote:Verzet?
Dat klinkt goed, zat Roozenburg niet ook in het verzet? Of juist niet?
Heb je ze niet meer op een rijtje, Denker?
Heaven is no location, but a state of mind

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Hanco Elenbaas
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Post by Hanco Elenbaas » Tue May 25, 2004 01:37

Image
Norman Rockwell - Checkers, 1929
Last edited by Hanco Elenbaas on Mon Jun 06, 2005 03:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Hanco Elenbaas
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Post by Hanco Elenbaas » Tue May 25, 2004 02:12

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Norman Rockwell - Last Move
Deze afbeelding hangt al minstens 20 jaar bij Hein aan de muur.

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Hanco Elenbaas
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Post by Hanco Elenbaas » Tue May 25, 2004 02:31

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Thomas Simonton

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Hanco Elenbaas
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Post by Hanco Elenbaas » Tue May 25, 2004 02:39

Image

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Hanco Elenbaas
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Post by Hanco Elenbaas » Tue May 25, 2004 02:55

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Ken Kelly - Checkers

Image

Image
"Just a friendly game" - Joseph Holodook

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Hanco Elenbaas
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Re: Achilles en Ajax

Post by Hanco Elenbaas » Sat May 29, 2004 13:57

Eric van Dusseldorp wrote:
Hanco Elenbaas wrote:
Eric van Dusseldorp wrote: Als die twee echt aan het dammen zijn, dan kan de hele geschiedenis van het damspel worden herschreven.
Kennelijk gaat het om een bordspel waarin de tegenstanders tegelijkertijd een zet mogen doen. Misschien een nieuw idee voor onze vernieuwers om het remisepercentage omlaag te brengen?
Jammer genoeg wordt de geschiedenis (ook die van het dammen) niet geschreven door zij die toegang hebben tot de Akashakroniek, maar door een stelletje sufferds, dat zich vaak ook nog 'wetenschappers' durft te noemen.
Daarom zal de geschiedenis steeds weer herschreven moeten worden.
Is er in de 'damgeschiedenis' niets bekend over dammen in Troje, Eric?

Maar omdat er zowel in Sumerië (5000 voor Christus) als in Egypte (2500 voor Christus) werd gedamd, zou het vreemd zijn als er in en rond Troje geen damspel bestaan heeft.
Dat moet nog maar eens uitgezocht worden. Ik ben die amfora al vaker tegengekomen op het web.
Het is uiterst onzeker of er in Sumerië en Egypte een spel werd gespeeld dat wij als 'dammen' zouden mogen beschouwen.
De officiële versie luidt volgens mij dat het dammen in de dertiende of veertiende eeuw in de Provence (of misschien in Spanje) is ontstaan onder sterke invloed van het Albequerquespel.
Dr. Arie van der Stoep toont in zijn proefschrift aan, dat het moderne schaakspel elementen van het dammen heeft overgenomen, in het bijzonder de promotie van een pion tot dame (let op het woord dame).

Misschien wordt er ooit een bewijs gevonden van dammen in de oudheid. Een Sumerisch kleitablet met daarop de adderslag bijvoorbeeld.
Hallo Eric,
Ik heb Google laten zoeken naar Achilles Ajax Draughts, en 336 zoekresultaten gekregen. De conclusie lijkt te zijn dat Achilles en Ajax hier volgens de wetenschappelijke wereld wel degelijk aan het dammen zijn.
Volgens De Mysticus is het kletskoek om te beweren dat beiden op de amphora tegelijkertijd een zet doen. Misschien zijn Ajax en Achilles wel aan het analyseren, of nog waarschijnlijker, heeft de kunstenaar Exekias voor deze positie gekozen vanwege artistieke, symmetrische redenen.
Stuur jij die prent even door naar Kruijswijk en Van der Stoep? Je mag 'm ook op je site zetten!

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steenslag
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Post by steenslag » Sat May 29, 2004 14:45

Die vaas heeft vorig jaar een maand op mijn site gestaan. Wie op Achilles Ajax Draughts zoekt, vind natuurlijk nogal veel sufferds die denken dat dit dammen is. Het is toch al opvallend dat op het internet elk abstract bordspel waar geen schaakstuk te zien is, onmiddelijk checkers of draughts heet.

De zoektermen exekias achilles ajax leveren voornamelijk game, board game of game of dice op. Ik zal van der Stoep eens vragen wat hij er van denkt.

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Hanco Elenbaas
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Post by Hanco Elenbaas » Sat May 29, 2004 14:56

Op http://www.triplejump.net/history.shtml vind je nog een Checkers History door Troy Lahodny, met de volgende niet-onbelangrijke opmerking:

A board game that appeared very similar to Checkers {called "Draughts" in Great Britain} was discovered in the ruins of the ancient city of "Ur" which is in Iraq. This board game dated about 3000 B.C.

En van http://www.earth-history.com/Pseudepigr ... ham-ur.htm

Below the black stratum which lies under the graves of the period of 3000 B.C. the richest graves were found. Here were discovered clay tablets, inscribed with a semi-pictographic script, and seals bearing the names of kings unrecorded in history. Among the other important "finds" may be mentioned:--(1) Eight shell plaques decorated with linear patterns (see Plate XV) and animal figures; the lines are filled in with colour, red and black. (2) A royal gaming board, which consists of 20 shell plaques, decorated with linear designs and inlay of red paste and lapis lazuli, and framed with lapis lazuli, ivory and mother-of-pearl. It is the Sumerian equivalent of the so-called draught-boards which have been found in Egyptian tombs, and seems to indicate that the Sumerians, as well as the Egyptians, believed that their dead amused themselves by playing some game like that of draughts in the Other World.

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Hanco Elenbaas
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Post by Hanco Elenbaas » Sat May 29, 2004 15:22

Misschien heb je wel gelijk Steenslag. Met dammen lijken die spelen uit Ur en Egypte niet veel te maken te hebben.

Van http://nabataea.net/games3.html

The Royal Game of Ur

Image

The most famous of the 'Royal Game of Ur' boards was found by Sir Leonard Woolley in 1927 in the tomb of a nameless king of Ur, where it had been either abandoned or overlooked by robbers looking for more lucrative spoil. It was hollow to allow a place for storing the pieces. It is made of fine inlays of shell, bone, lapis lazuli, and red limestone. The board dates from about 2500 BC, and was one of five such boards (albeit the most richly decorated one) found by the famous archaeologist in various tombs of the royal cemetery of Ur.
'The Royal Game of Ur' is the most ancient board game known, predating even Egyptian Senet by about 300 years. It appears to have been very popular among the Sumerian rulers and to have spread from Sumer to sites all over the ancient world from India to the Mediterranean. The ancient Egyptian game '20-Squares' (dating from about 1800 BC), for instance, is very likely a version of this game. 'The Royal Game of Ur' was played in ancient Sumer and Mesopotamia since before at least 2500 BC. 'The Royal Game of Ur' is of course not the game's real name, as its actual name is lost in antiquity, but because of the examples of it found in the royal cemetery of Ur, the game soon came to be called 'The Royal Game of Ur' among archaeologists. The game is played with fourteen markers (seven to a side) with two sets, one for each player, of three curious pyramidal dice. The boards the markers move on are variously made but all share distinct rosette markings on strategic squares. While this is an interesting game, it doesn't seem to be similar to anything we found in Petra.

Senet

Senet was an immensely popular game in ancient Egypt, and was played by both commoners and nobility. In later times it even seems to have taken on religious significance.

The game was played on a board of 30 squares; the object being to get one's pieces on the board, then around the board in an S-shaped pattern, and finally off again at the far end. The game required strategy as well as chance. The most common playing pieces were 5 cones shaped pieces pitted against 5 reel shaped pieces (These pieces were called 'ibau' which means 'dancers' in Egyptian). Senet was originally a two player game but during the New Kingdom period a game in progress would often appear painted on tomb walls as a 'one' player game, the opponent being a spirit from the afterlife.

Image

The picture above is a modern version of Senet, from The Online Guide to Traditional Games. Used with permission.

The Senet board on the right came from the tomb of Ak-Hor at Dra abu el-Naga on the West Bank of Thebes. The game box is made of ebony and ivory, and the playing pieces are made of faience, a composite material of ground quartz with a colored, alkaline glaze.

For the rules for Senet and links to Internet sites about the game click here.

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Kosmos
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Post by Kosmos » Sat May 29, 2004 17:13

Hanco Elenbaas wrote:Misschien heb je wel gelijk Steenslag. Met dammen lijken die spelen uit Ur en Egypte niet veel te maken te hebben.

Van http://nabataea.net/games3.html

The Royal Game of Ur

Image

The most famous of the 'Royal Game of Ur' boards was found by Sir Leonard Woolley in 1927 in the tomb of a nameless king of Ur, where it had been either abandoned or overlooked by robbers looking for more lucrative spoil. It was hollow to allow a place for storing the pieces. It is made of fine inlays of shell, bone, lapis lazuli, and red limestone. The board dates from about 2500 BC, and was one of five such boards (albeit the most richly decorated one) found by the famous archaeologist in various tombs of the royal cemetery of Ur.
'The Royal Game of Ur' is the most ancient board game known, predating even Egyptian Senet by about 300 years. It appears to have been very popular among the Sumerian rulers and to have spread from Sumer to sites all over the ancient world from India to the Mediterranean. The ancient Egyptian game '20-Squares' (dating from about 1800 BC), for instance, is very likely a version of this game. 'The Royal Game of Ur' was played in ancient Sumer and Mesopotamia since before at least 2500 BC. 'The Royal Game of Ur' is of course not the game's real name, as its actual name is lost in antiquity, but because of the examples of it found in the royal cemetery of Ur, the game soon came to be called 'The Royal Game of Ur' among archaeologists. The game is played with fourteen markers (seven to a side) with two sets, one for each player, of three curious pyramidal dice. The boards the markers move on are variously made but all share distinct rosette markings on strategic squares. While this is an interesting game, it doesn't seem to be similar to anything we found in Petra.

Senet

Senet was an immensely popular game in ancient Egypt, and was played by both commoners and nobility. In later times it even seems to have taken on religious significance.

The game was played on a board of 30 squares; the object being to get one's pieces on the board, then around the board in an S-shaped pattern, and finally off again at the far end. The game required strategy as well as chance. The most common playing pieces were 5 cones shaped pieces pitted against 5 reel shaped pieces (These pieces were called 'ibau' which means 'dancers' in Egyptian). Senet was originally a two player game but during the New Kingdom period a game in progress would often appear painted on tomb walls as a 'one' player game, the opponent being a spirit from the afterlife.

Image

The picture above is a modern version of Senet, from The Online Guide to Traditional Games. Used with permission.

The Senet board on the right came from the tomb of Ak-Hor at Dra abu el-Naga on the West Bank of Thebes. The game box is made of ebony and ivory, and the playing pieces are made of faience, a composite material of ground quartz with a colored, alkaline glaze.

For the rules for Senet and links to Internet sites about the game click here.
Senet lijkt meer op ganzenbord.
Heaven is no location, but a state of mind

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