Rein Halbersma wrote:
...
2) 7.29-24 19x39 8.28x10 35-30 9.10-04 18-22 10.4-15! 40-44 11.15-29 44-50 with the idea 12.29-45 21-26 13.32x21 16x27 14.25-20 39-44 15.45-29 44-49 16.38-32 27x38 17.29x47/42 22-28 18.20-14 49-32 19.47-20 (19.14-9?? 32x41!!) 32x41
[img]http://fmjd.org/dias2/save/11808626454.png[/img]
White to play. Can white stop black from getting 5 kings?
No doubt for me that black can manage to get 5 kings.
Exemple : 20.14-09 26-31 21.09-03 11-16 22.20-15 31-36 23.15-42 50-45 24.03-25 42-37 25.42-37 45-23 26.37-26 23-05 27.25-39 28-32 28.39-43 47-38 29.43-39 36-41 etc.
Rein Halbersma wrote:
...
2) 7.29-24 19x39 8.28x10 35-30 9.10-04 18-22 10.4-15! 40-44 11.15-29 44-50 with the idea 12.29-45 21-26 13.32x21 16x27 14.25-20 39-44 15.45-29 44-49 16.38-32 27x38 17.29x47/42 22-28 18.20-14 49-32 19.47-20 (19.14-9?? 32x41!!) 32x41
<img src="http://fmjd.org/dias2/save/11808626454.png">
White to play. Can white stop black from getting 5 kings?
No doubt for me that black can manage to get 5 kings.
Exemple : 20.14-09 26-31 21.09-03 11-16 22.20-15 31-36 23.15-42 50-45 24.03-25 42-37 25.42-37 45-23 26.37-26 23-05 27.25-39 28-32 28.39-43 47-38 29.43-39 36-41 etc.
This is a very strange variant. White gives 3, 4 or 5 tempi to his opponent. Most simple is the remise 7.29-24 19x39 8.28x10 35-40? 9.10-4 18-22 10.25-20 40-44/39-44 11.20-14. The action 11...22-28 doesn't do anything. After 11...44-49 12.38-33 27x29 13.4x36 the position is remise. White will take a second king on 5 and exchange piece 37 against 21 or 29. Then the resulting 5/2 is remise. The only chance in a position with 2 pieces after the long diagonal is to bring a piece to 12. That isn't possible here.
Rein Halbersma wrote:
...
2) 7.29-24 19x39 8.28x10 35-30 9.10-04 18-22 10.4-15! 40-44 11.15-29 44-50 with the idea 12.29-45 21-26 13.32x21 16x27 14.25-20 39-44 15.45-29 44-49 16.38-32 27x38 17.29x47/42 22-28 18.20-14 49-32 19.47-20 (19.14-9?? 32x41!!) 32x41
<img src="http://fmjd.org/dias2/save/11808626454.png">
White to play. Can white stop black from getting 5 kings?
No doubt for me that black can manage to get 5 kings.
Exemple : 20.14-09 26-31 21.09-03 11-16 22.20-15 31-36 23.15-42 50-45 24.03-25 42-37 25.42-37 45-23 26.37-26 23-05 27.25-39 28-32 28.39-43 47-38 29.43-39 36-41 etc.
This is a very strange variant. White gives 3, 4 or 5 tempi to his opponent. Most simple is the remise 7.29-24 19x39 8.28x10 35-40? 9.10-4 18-22 10.25-20 40-44/39-44 11.20-14. The action 11...22-28 doesn't do anything. After 11...44-49 12.38-33 27x29 13.4x36 the position is remise. White will take a second king on 5 and exchange piece 37 against 21 or 29. Then the resulting 5/2 is remise. The only chance in a position with 2 pieces after the long diagonal is to bring a piece to 12. That isn't possible here.
After 7.29-24 19x39 8.28x10 35-40 9.10-4 18-22 10.25-20?? there is the combinaison 22-28 x 40-44 x 21-27 x 44-50 N+
TAILLE wrote:
No doubt for me that black can manage to get 5 kings.
Exemple : 20.14-09 26-31 21.09-03 11-16 22.20-15 31-36 23.15-42 50-45 24.03-25 42-37 25.42-37 45-23 26.37-26 23-05 27.25-39 28-32 28.39-43 47-38 29.43-39 36-41 etc.
This is a very strange variant. White gives 3, 4 or 5 tempi to his opponent. Most simple is the remise 7.29-24 19x39 8.28x10 35-40? 9.10-4 18-22 10.25-20 40-44/39-44 11.20-14. The action 11...22-28 doesn't do anything. After 11...44-49 12.38-33 27x29 13.4x36 the position is remise. White will take a second king on 5 and exchange piece 37 against 21 or 29. Then the resulting 5/2 is remise. The only chance in a position with 2 pieces after the long diagonal is to bring a piece to 12. That isn't possible here.
After 7.29-24 19x39 8.28x10 35-40 9.10-4 18-22 10.25-20?? there is the combinaison 22-28 x 40-44 x 21-27 x 44-50 N+
You are right. I looked back to the variation of Wesselink. There are severals idears for white to do it better. 9.25-20 40-44 10.20-15 18-22 11.10-4 44-50 12.38-33 27x29 13.4x36 29-33. That is nice, but what will happen after 14.36-41; 15.15-10. Then white can exchange the piece on 37 again with 21 of 33 and take control over the long diagonal. After 14.36-41 38-33 15.37-31. On 14.46-41 39-43 15.15-10 43-48 16.41-47=.
I do see now, that the idear 9.25-20 40-44 10.20-14 18-22 11.14-9 44-49 isn't very good for white, because he has something to do against 22-28 and taking of one of the two potential kings. After 11.10-5 44-49 12.14-10 39-44 13.10-4 21-26 14.32x21 49x46 15.4x27 26x17 one king is trapped on the long diagonal.
Luteijn wrote:
You are right. I looked back to the variation of Wesselink. There are severals idears for white to do it better. 9.25-20 40-44 10.20-15 18-22 11.10-4 44-50 12.38-33 27x29 13.4x36 29-33. That is nice, but what will happen after 14.36-41; 15.15-10. Then white can exchange the piece on 37 again with 21 of 33 and take control over the long diagonal. After 14.36-41 38-33 15.37-31. On 14.46-41 39-43 15.15-10 43-48 16.41-47=.
How do you want to make an exchange after 14.36-41? 33-38! Note that 15.15-10 is not possible then, so to me it seems it is completely lost.
Luteijn wrote:
You are right. I looked back to the variation of Wesselink. There are severals idears for white to do it better. 9.25-20 40-44 10.20-15 18-22 11.10-4 44-50 12.38-33 27x29 13.4x36 29-33. That is nice, but what will happen after 14.36-41; 15.15-10. Then white can exchange the piece on 37 again with 21 of 33 and take control over the long diagonal. After 14.36-41 38-33 15.37-31. On 14.46-41 39-43 15.15-10 43-48 16.41-47=.
How do you want to make an exchange after 14.36-41? 33-38! Note that 15.15-10 is not possible then, so to me it seems it is completely lost.
Hello Wieger,
I have to confess that it was not easy for me to find here the black moves 9...44-40! 10.20-14/15 18-22! By keeping a black pieces on 39 and by leaving the choice between 44-50 and 44-49 the white position becomes very difficult. As usual these black moves seem now obvious but I never saw them in previous analysis so am rather happy.
Coming back to the position
did you manage to obtain the win after Sijbrands proposal 38-33 27x29 04x36/31 ?
I think black has a winning position but, because the number a possible variants, I could not be completly sure. Taking my own analysis the first black move after 04x36/31 is very dependant of white choice between 04x36 and 04x31.
If you have analysed these varaints I would be happy to exchange with you
Coming back to the position
did you manage to obtain the win after Sijbrands proposal 38-33 27x29 04x36/31 ?
I think black has a winning position but, because the number a possible variants, I could not be completly sure. Taking my own analysis the first black move after 04x36/31 is very dependant of white choice between 04x36 and 04x31.
If you have analysed these varaints I would be happy to exchange with you
Hello Gérard, I'll take a look at it later this week.
Luteijn wrote:
You are right. I looked back to the variation of Wesselink. There are severals idears for white to do it better. 9.25-20 40-44 10.20-15 18-22 11.10-4 44-50 12.38-33 27x29 13.4x36 29-33. That is nice, but what will happen after 14.36-41; 15.15-10. Then white can exchange the piece on 37 again with 21 of 33 and take control over the long diagonal. After 14.36-41 38-33 15.37-31. On 14.46-41 39-43 15.15-10 43-48 16.41-47=.
How do you want to make an exchange after 14.36-41? 33-38! Note that 15.15-10 is not possible then, so to me it seems it is completely lost.
It is quiet remarkable the number of tactical possibilities black has. It is a pity that Truus hasn't any idear what are win and remise positions. So her defense needs a lot of help. Still the defense of white isn't exhausted. It is clear, that moving the piece on 37 to 32 is losing, because the exchange will not happen anymore. The moving of the piece to 31 doesn't work either in two variants:
1. 14.36-41 33-38 15.37-31 38-42 16.15-10 42-48 17.31-26 11-17 X
2. 14.37-31 21-26 15.36-47 (if?) 26x37 16.47x29 37-41 X
The next possibility is bring the white king to the other site. The field 4 doesn't work because of 14.36-4 39-43 15.15-10 43-48 and the piece on 37 is gone. But the idear 14.36-13 can be investigated. After 14...33-38 15.37-31 39-43 16.13-19 white gets his exchange. On 13...38-43 14.15-10 43-48 15.13-30 48x26 16.30x48 50-28 17.10-5 28-46 18.48-39 white has draw.
Luteijn wrote:
...
The next possibility is bring the white king to the other site. The field 4 doesn't work because of 14.36-4 39-43 15.15-10 43-48 and the piece on 37 is gone. But the idear 14.36-13 can be investigated. After 14...33-38 15.37-31 39-43 16.13-19 white gets his exchange. On 13...38-43 14.15-10 43-48 15.13-30 48x26 16.30x48 50-28 17.10-5 28-46 18.48-39 white has draw.
14.36-13 33-38 15.37-31 39-43 16.13-19 black wins by 43-48 31-26 48-37
I am not familiar with Truus and I use only Damy which I created and I improve regularly. I don't know if Truus is strong in endgame (I guess it is!) but I would like to say that we cannot claim that a programm is strong in finding draws. In the endgame almost all programms have the same approach. With the advantage they of course look for a win; if they don't find this win then they look for the most advantageous variant but conclude to a draw. In a disadvantage position they try to avoid sure lost variants. The ideal situation is when all move but one are losing moves !
As you see a programm is strong in endgame if and only if it is strong in finding winning variants.
Unless you are rather near the endgame database, when a programm conclude that it is a draw that does not mean that the result is really a draw; it means only that the programm did not find any winning variant !
You must always be careful with draw result given by a programm and it is also true for Damy.
Luteijn wrote:
...
The next possibility is bring the white king to the other site. The field 4 doesn't work because of 14.36-4 39-43 15.15-10 43-48 and the piece on 37 is gone. But the idear 14.36-13 can be investigated. After 14...33-38 15.37-31 39-43 16.13-19 white gets his exchange. On 13...38-43 14.15-10 43-48 15.13-30 48x26 16.30x48 50-28 17.10-5 28-46 18.48-39 white has draw.
14.36-13 33-38 15.37-31 39-43 16.13-19 black wins by 43-48 31-26 48-37
I am not familiar with Truus and I use only Damy which I created and I improve regularly. I don't know if Truus is strong in endgame (I guess it is!) but I would like to say that we cannot claim that a programm is strong in finding draws. In the endgame almost all programms have the same approach. With the advantage they of course look for a win; if they don't find this win then they look for the most advantageous variant but conclude to a draw. In a disadvantage position they try to avoid sure lost variants. The ideal situation is when all move but one are losing moves !
As you see a programm is strong in endgame if and only if it is strong in finding winning variants.
Unless you are rather near the endgame database, when a programm conclude that it is a draw that does not mean that the result is really a draw; it means only that the programm did not find any winning variant !
You must always be careful with draw result given by a programm and it is also true for Damy.
The remise is intended to happen with the exchange 14.36-13 33-38 15.37-31 39-43 16.13-19 43-48 17.31-27! The possibilty 31-26 isn't considered because 11-17 is winning rather easely. You have to exchange the piece on 37. Otherwise almost everything is winning. Six against three in this way with enough kings is chanceless. The problem with computerprograms is, that they really don't have any idear about remise and winning in endgames with more then six pieces. There was a time, that a computer even couldn't win a position of four against 1 king. Some humans with some tactical help and study of endgames in the past know rather easy where the draws are possible. I get lessons from Leo Springer and I studied Moser. The current grandmasters are even better. Because they know the standard endgames and are good in tactics.
Luteijn wrote:
...
The next possibility is bring the white king to the other site. The field 4 doesn't work because of 14.36-4 39-43 15.15-10 43-48 and the piece on 37 is gone. But the idear 14.36-13 can be investigated. After 14...33-38 15.37-31 39-43 16.13-19 white gets his exchange. On 13...38-43 14.15-10 43-48 15.13-30 48x26 16.30x48 50-28 17.10-5 28-46 18.48-39 white has draw.
14.36-13 33-38 15.37-31 39-43 16.13-19 black wins by 43-48 31-26 48-37
I am not familiar with Truus and I use only Damy which I created and I improve regularly. I don't know if Truus is strong in endgame (I guess it is!) but I would like to say that we cannot claim that a programm is strong in finding draws. In the endgame almost all programms have the same approach. With the advantage they of course look for a win; if they don't find this win then they look for the most advantageous variant but conclude to a draw. In a disadvantage position they try to avoid sure lost variants. The ideal situation is when all move but one are losing moves !
As you see a programm is strong in endgame if and only if it is strong in finding winning variants.
Unless you are rather near the endgame database, when a programm conclude that it is a draw that does not mean that the result is really a draw; it means only that the programm did not find any winning variant !
You must always be careful with draw result given by a programm and it is also true for Damy.
The remise is intended to happen with the exchange 14.36-13 33-38 15.37-31 39-43 16.13-19 43-48 17.31-27! The possibilty 31-26 isn't considered because 11-17 is winning rather easely. You have to exchange the piece on 37. Otherwise almost everything is winning. Six against three in this way with enough kings is chanceless. The problem with computerprograms is, that they really don't have any idear about remise and winning in endgames with more then six pieces. There was a time, that a computer even couldn't win a position of four against 1 king. Some humans with some tactical help and study of endgames in the past know rather easy where the draws are possible. I get lessons from Leo Springer and I studied Moser. The current grandmasters are even better. Because they know the standard endgames and are good in tactics.
Sorry, I made a notation error (instead of 15...39-43 I played 15...38-43)
After 15.37-31 39-43 16.13-19 a good continuation for black is 16...50-22 and white seems lost
TAILLE wrote:
14.36-13 33-38 15.37-31 39-43 16.13-19 black wins by 43-48 31-26 48-37
I am not familiar with Truus and I use only Damy which I created and I improve regularly. I don't know if Truus is strong in endgame (I guess it is!) but I would like to say that we cannot claim that a programm is strong in finding draws. In the endgame almost all programms have the same approach. With the advantage they of course look for a win; if they don't find this win then they look for the most advantageous variant but conclude to a draw. In a disadvantage position they try to avoid sure lost variants. The ideal situation is when all move but one are losing moves !
As you see a programm is strong in endgame if and only if it is strong in finding winning variants.
Unless you are rather near the endgame database, when a programm conclude that it is a draw that does not mean that the result is really a draw; it means only that the programm did not find any winning variant !
You must always be careful with draw result given by a programm and it is also true for Damy.
The remise is intended to happen with the exchange 14.36-13 33-38 15.37-31 39-43 16.13-19 43-48 17.31-27! The possibilty 31-26 isn't considered because 11-17 is winning rather easely. You have to exchange the piece on 37. Otherwise almost everything is winning. Six against three in this way with enough kings is chanceless. The problem with computerprograms is, that they really don't have any idear about remise and winning in endgames with more then six pieces. There was a time, that a computer even couldn't win a position of four against 1 king. Some humans with some tactical help and study of endgames in the past know rather easy where the draws are possible. I get lessons from Leo Springer and I studied Moser. The current grandmasters are even better. Because they know the standard endgames and are good in tactics.
Sorry, I made a notation error (instead of 15...39-43 I played 15...38-43)
After 15.37-31 39-43 16.13-19 a good continuation for black is 16...50-22 and white seems lost
Indeed you are right. Another idear (Truus) is 14.36-13 33-38 15.13-24 38-43 16.15-10. After 16...43-48 17.24-30 with draw. On 16...43-49 blacks main thread is 49-27 and piece 37 is out of business. But it is possible to play 17.37-31. Black can try 17...49-40 18.24-2 (Truus) and it isn't clear what todo against 10-5 and 31-27 =. Piece 39 is weak and makes it impossible to take the diagonal 4/36. Another important variant is 17...49-35 18.24-42 39-43 19.10-5 43-48 10.31-26x6 = (The difference between 49-40 and 49-35 is the control over field 1)
Luteijn wrote:
Indeed you are right. Another idear (Truus) is 14.36-13 33-38 15.13-24 38-43 16.15-10. After 16...43-48 17.24-30 with draw. On 16...43-49 blacks main thread is 49-27 and piece 37 is out of business. But it is possible to play 17.37-31. Black can try 17...49-40 18.24-2 (Truus) and it isn't clear what todo against 10-5 and 31-27 =. Piece 39 is weak and makes it impossible to take the diagonal 4/36. Another important variant is 17...49-35 18.24-42 39-43 19.10-5 43-48 10.31-26x6 = (The difference between 49-40 and 49-35 is the control over field 1)
After 14.36-13 33-38 15.13-24 38-43 16.15-10 43-49 17.37-31 it appears that white fails to make an exchange on the left side. Why Truus do not try to make quickly a third king ? I propose to follow simply by 17...39-43 18.10-5 (18.31-27?? 21x32 19.10-05 49-35 B+) 43-48 19.31-26 (19.31-27?? 31x32 20.05x46 49-32 B+) 21-27 20.24-15 11-17 and with 6 pieces the win is easy for exemple : 21.15-04 50-22 22.04-15 (22.05-46?? 27-32B+) 48-34 23.05-37 24.34-01 49.37-41 01-06 50.41-46 22-50 and white is lost
Luteijn wrote:
Indeed you are right. Another idear (Truus) is 14.36-13 33-38 15.13-24 38-43 16.15-10. After 16...43-48 17.24-30 with draw. On 16...43-49 blacks main thread is 49-27 and piece 37 is out of business. But it is possible to play 17.37-31. Black can try 17...49-40 18.24-2 (Truus) and it isn't clear what todo against 10-5 and 31-27 =. Piece 39 is weak and makes it impossible to take the diagonal 4/36. Another important variant is 17...49-35 18.24-42 39-43 19.10-5 43-48 10.31-26x6 = (The difference between 49-40 and 49-35 is the control over field 1)
After 14.36-13 33-38 15.13-24 38-43 16.15-10 43-49 17.37-31 it appears that white fails to make an exchange on the left side. Why Truus do not try to make quickly a third king ? I propose to follow simply by 17...39-43 18.10-5 (18.31-27?? 21x32 19.10-05 49-35 B+) 43-48 19.31-26 (19.31-27?? 31x32 20.05x46 49-32 B+) 21-27 20.24-15 11-17 and with 6 pieces the win is easy for exemple : 21.15-04 50-22 22.04-15 (22.05-46?? 27-32B+) 48-34 23.05-37 24.34-01 49.37-41 01-06 50.41-46 22-50 and white is lost
You are right, but Yesterday I discussed the position with Anton Kosior. He pointed out the possibility 14.37-32 39-43 15.15-10 33-39 16.32-27 21x32 17.10-5 and the piece of black on 32 gets lost. After 17...32-38 18.36-47 =. The important positions in the 5/2 endgame are pointed out by Frans Hermelink several years ago. He created some standards to win this kind of positions. I added this some times ago to my site:
The important position in this case is above. Black wins, because both white kings are trapped on the long diagonal. When you study the positions of Frans Hermelink you will see, that when the king of 46 is somewhere else on the board the situation is less clear (probably remise).
You are right, but Yesterday I discussed the position with Anton Kosior. He pointed out the possibility 14.37-32 39-43 15.15-10 33-39 16.32-27 21x32 17.10-5 and the piece of black on 32 gets lost. After 17...32-38 18.36-47 =
...
After 14.37-32 39-43 15.15-10 33-39 16.32-27 21x32 17.10-5 32-38 18.36-47 black wins by the small combinaison 18...43-49 19.47x06 49-27B+
