Help from the 8 pieces endgame database ?

Ed Gilbert · Post by **Ed Gilbert** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 20:27

Ed, can you confirm that the following 4 positions are a white win? (i.e. the 3 variations on the shown diagram with the black king on squares 2,3 or 4 instead of square 1: are these also white wins?

[FEN "W:WK37,K47,K49,K50:BK1,35,36,45."]
1. 37-48 {ww}

[FEN "W:WK37,K47,K49,K50:BK2,35,36,45."]
1. 49-16 {ww}

[FEN "W:WK37,K47,K49,K50:BK3,35,36,45."]
1. 37-42 {ww}

[FEN "W:WK37,K47,K49,K50:BK4,35,36,45."]
1. 37-42 {ww}

And can you confirm that with white king 37 on 48 and the black king on the single corner diagonal, that the position is a draw then?

Sorry, you lost me. What is the full setup for this test?

-- Ed

Ed Gilbert · Post by **Ed Gilbert** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 20:38

Never mind, I think I understand now.

[FEN "W:WK47,K48,K49,K50:BK5,35,36,45."]
{draw}

Rein Halbersma · Post by **Rein Halbersma** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 08:42

Ed Gilbert wrote:Never mind, I think I understand now.

[FEN "W:WK47,K48,K49,K50:BK5,35,36,45."]
{draw}

great! that confirms a 40+ year old analysis from the pre-PC era!

TAILLE · Post by **TAILLE** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 16:14

Hi Ed.

If it is black to play Damy is able to find a white win.
If it is white to play it becomes far more difficult and Damy is not able to find a win.

What is the result white to play ?
If it is a win could you give me the best sequence to reach a winning conversion ?

Thank you in advance.

Ed Gilbert · Post by **Ed Gilbert** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 01:46

If it is black to play Damy is able to find a white win.
If it is white to play it becomes far more difficult and Damy is not able to find a win.

What is the result white to play ?

Gerard, you did not indicate if square 1 is at upper left or lower right, so I will assume that it is upper left.

[FEN "B:WK6,17,32,37,K43:BK13,26,45."]
WW

[FEN "W:WK6,17,32,37,K43:BK13,26,45."]
Draw.

-- Ed

TAILLE · Post by **TAILLE** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 10:36

Ed Gilbert wrote: Gerard, you did not indicate if square 1 is at upper left or lower right, so I will assume that it is upper left.

[FEN "B:WK6,17,32,37,K43:BK13,26,45."]
WW

[FEN "W:WK6,17,32,37,K43:BK13,26,45."]
Draw.

-- Ed

Yes, sqare 1 was at upper left.
It is of course always easier to find a win than to prove a draw!
That position is then a "zugswang" which is always a fascinating property.
Thank you Ed.

BertTuyt · Post by **BertTuyt** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 13:34

Ed,

some years ago G. Jansen - H. Meijer played a Woldouby won by Jansen. Maybe I missed something but in the analysis it was not yet (or never) made clear where Meijer made the vital/final mistake.
Maybe interesting if you, with the 8p databases, could provide any help and/or insights.
Maybe this was already done, and i justed missed it.

Position after 55. 20-14 , so black to move in the diagram

Appreciate your help here.

Bert

Ed Gilbert · Post by **Ed Gilbert** » Sun Aug 23, 2009 23:52

Bert, both 27-31 and 27-32 draw. I don't have the game so don't know where the mistake was made. Can you post it?

-- Ed

ildjarn · Post by **ildjarn** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 15:12

Ed Gilbert wrote:Bert, both 27-31 and 27-32 draw. I don't have the game so don't know where the mistake was made. Can you post it?

-- Ed

http://toernooibase.kndb.nl/opvraag/app ... &wed=19856

For some reason, the PDN text can't be selected.

wellnesswrotter · Post by **wellnesswrotter** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 19:06

probably to long:

parse it on:
http://www.snukenkuzco.nl/pages/gameparser.aspx

Piet Bouma · Post by **Piet Bouma** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 19:32

J.T., maybe you can delete this long string. [img]images/smilies/icon_surprised.gif[/img]
Notation:

Gérard Jansen - Hein Meijer 2-0 21-01-2006 4.34/4.58
01.32-28 17-22 02.28x17 12x21 03.33-28 07-12 04.39-33 19-23 05.28x19 14x23
06.44-39 09-14 07.37-32 11-17 08.31-27 06-11 09.50-44 01-06 10.34-30 23-28
11.33x22 17x37 12.41x32 20-24 13.30x19 14x23 14.40-34 21-26 15.46-41 26-31
16.27-21 16x27 17.32x21 11-17 18.36x27 17x26 19.39-33 10-14 20.35-30 05-10
21.45-40 14-19 22.44-39 10-14 23.40-35 04-09 24.38-32 02-07 25.33-28 15-20
26.30-25 20-24 27.43-38 07-11 28.34-30 12-17 29.41-36 17-22 30.28x17 11x31
31.36x27 08-12 32.38-33 24-29 33.33x24 23-28 34.32x23 18x20 35.39-33 12-18
36.49-43 20-24 37.43-38 18-23 38.38-32 03-08 39.42-37 08-12 40.48-43 13-18
41.43-39 09-13 42.33-28 06-11 43.47-42 11-16 44.42-38 24-29 45.39-33 12-17
46.33x24 17-21 47.38-33 23-29 48.28-23 19x39 49.24x44 18-23 50.27-22 13-18
51.22x13 14-19 52.13x24 21-27 53.32x21 16x27 54.24-20 23-28 55.20-14 27-31
56.14-10 31x42 57.10-05 28-33 58.25-20 42-47 59.20-15 33-38 60.44-39 38-42
61.30-25 47-36 62.39-34 36-18 63.34-30 42-48 64.05-28 18-45 65.28-46 48-39
66.30-24 39-50 67.24-20 26-31 68.20-14 31-36 69.14-10 50-06 70.10-05 06-22
71.05-32 22-50 72.15-10 50-06 73.10-04 06-50 74.04-15 50-06 75.15-47 06-50
76.25-20 50-06 77.20-15 45-34 78.15-10 34-45 79.10-04 06-50 80.35-30 45-01
81.30-25 50-06 82.25-20 06-50 83.20-15 50-06 84.15-10 06-50 85.10-05 50-06
86.32-38 06-50 87.05-37 50-06 88.04-27 06-50 89.37-26 50-06 90.46-05 36-41
91.05x46 06-50 92.27-36 01-06 93.26-21 50-11 94.21-27 11-02 95.46-32 02-11
96.27-16 11-50 97.32-23 06-39 98.23-01 39-48 99.01-23 50-06 100.36-09 06-50
101.47-36 50-45 102.23-14 45-01 103.16-32 01-06 104.38-24 06-50 105.32-27 48-39
106.09-18 39-48 107.18-01 50-06 108.24-29 48-26 109.27-49 26-03 110.14-37 06-11
111.01-06 11-02 112.37-48 03-26 113.06-11 02x16 114.29-38 16x43 115.49x32

Ed Gilbert · Post by **Ed Gilbert** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 00:37

1. 32-28 17-22 2. 28x17 12x21 3. 33-28 7-12 4. 39-33 19-23 5. 28x19 14x23 6. 44-39 9-14 7. 37-32 11-17 8. 31-27 6-11 9. 50-44 1-6 10. 34-30 23-28 11. 33x22 17x37 12. 41x32 20-24 13. 30x19 14x23 14. 40-34 21-26 15. 46-41 26-31 16. 27-21 16x27 17. 32x21 11-17 18. 36x27 17x26 19. 39-33 10-14 20. 35-30 5-10 21. 45-40 14-19 22. 44-39 10-14 23. 40-35 4-9 24. 38-32 2-7 25. 33-28 15-20 26. 30-25 20-24 27. 43-38 7-11 28. 34-30 12-17 29. 41-36 17-22 30. 28x17 11x31 31. 36x27 8-12 32. 38-33 24-29 33. 33x24 23-28 34. 32x23 18x20 35. 39-33 12-18 36. 49-43 20-24 37. 43-38 18-23 38. 38-32 3-8 39. 42-37 8-12 40. 48-43 13-18 41. 43-39 9-13 42. 33-28 6-11 43. 47-42 11-16 44. 42-38 24-29 45. 39-33 12-17 46. 33x24 17-21 47. 38-33 23-29 48. 28-23 19x39 49. 24x44 18-23 50. 27-22 13-18 51. 22x13 14-19 52. 13x24 21-27 53. 32x21 16x27 54. 24-20 23-28 55. 20-14 27-31 56. 14-10 31x42 57. 10-5 28-33 58. 25-20 42-47 59. 20-15 33-38 60. 44-39 38-42 61. 30-25 47-36 62. 39-34 36-18 63. 34-30 42-48 64. 5-28 18-45 65. 28-46 48-39 66. 30-24 39-50

{Up to this move the game is a draw. But after 39-50 it is a WW. Black should have played 26-31.}

67. 24-20 26-31 68. 20-14 31-36 69. 14-10 50-6 70. 10-5 6-22 71. 5-32 22-50 72. 15-10

{With this move the game is again a draw. White should have played 35-30.}

50-6

{Now it is a white win again. Black should have played 45-29 to draw. }

73. 10-4 6-50 74. 4-15 50-6 75. 15-47 6-50 76. 25-20 50-6 77. 20-15 45-34 78. 15-10 34-45 79. 10-4 6-50 80. 35-30 45-1 81. 30-25 50-6 82. 25-20 6-50 83. 20-15 50-6 84. 15-10 6-50 85. 10-5 50-6 86. 32-38 6-50 87. 5-37 50-6 88. 4-27 6-50 89. 37-26 50-6 90. 46-5 36-41 91. 5x46 6-50 92. 27-36 1-6 93. 26-21 50-11 94. 21-27 11-2 95. 46-32 2-11 96. 27-16 11-50 97. 32-23 6-39 98. 23-1 39-48 99. 1-23 50-6 100. 36-9 6-50 101. 47-36 50-45 102. 23-14 45-1 103. 16-32 1-6 104. 38-24 6-50 105. 32-27 48-39 106. 9-18 39-48 107. 18-1 50-6 108. 24-29 48-26 109. 27-49 26-3 110. 14-37 6-11 111. 1-6 11-2 112. 37-48 3-26 113. 6-11 2x16 114. 29-38 16x43 115. 49x32

-- Ed

BertTuyt · Post by **BertTuyt** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 19:02

Ed,

interesting result. It once again shows the with these databases we can boldly go where no-one has gone before [img]images/smilies/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Rein, I think we should post this in the "human" forum. Im curious to see the reactions. Next to that are the moves where the fatal errors were made, logical from a human perspective. Or are these mistakes, completely beyond human knowledge and capabilities.

Was this already known, did someone came to similar conclusions, or is this all new?

Im looking forward to some feedback

Bert

Rein Halbersma · Post by **Rein Halbersma** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 20:21

BertTuyt wrote:Ed,

interesting result. It once again shows the with these databases we can boldly go where no-one has gone before [img]images/smilies/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Rein, I think we should post this in the "human" forum. Im curious to see the reactions. Next to that are the moves where the fatal errors were made, logical from a human perspective. Or are these mistakes, completely beyond human knowledge and capabilities.

Was this already known, did someone came to similar conclusions, or is this all new?

Im looking forward to some feedback

Bert

Hi Bert, Ed already posted this analysis 2 years ago in the thread about the World Championships 2007.
http://laatste.info/bb/viewtopic.php?p= ... ouby#56259

Rein

BertTuyt · Post by **BertTuyt** » Tue Aug 25, 2009 21:03

Rein,

and to what extend are the error logical from a human perspective, or just to difficult to understand ?

Bert

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Help from the 8 pieces endgame database ?

8 pieces position