Copyrights for draughts database

[BertTuyt]

From Piet Bouma (Toernooibase) I received a .pdn (2.0 output and not 3.0 !) file with 116848 games.
Unfortunately 56 games were rejected by my PDN-reader , partly due to ambiguous moves (multiple moves with the same from and to square) and some other errors (like typos).
I resolved the problem of ambiguous move, as I now apply (in case of ambiguous moves), a tree-search which solved 30 games.

Im now scanning the error .pdn files to find and correct the remaining errors.
If people are interested , I could share the file ( 151 MByte) in a dropbox folder (or alike) and distribute the file-location for general download (as Piet gave permission for this).

As stated in another post, I'm updating the database capabilities of the Damage 2014 GUI.
For this purpose I will convert the mentioned.pdn file into a more compressed format ( Open Draughts Database, .odd or .oddx), which is more tailored for search-operations.
In the next weeks I will post the initial specification for .oddx, so all can "shoot" at it...

It is evident, that in a later stage the Damage 2014 GUI (with database capabilities) will be available (with the .odd , .oddx file) as a free download.

I hope that many will use the side of Piet to upload their games, so it could be the free platform for all to use..

Keep you posted,

Bert

[Klaas Bor]

That Piet gives permission to allow the distribution of the Toernooibase games looks very sympathetic. But it is not. Piet likes to forget how the database of Toernooibase was build up in the first place. At least half of the games of Toernooibase are simply copied by Piet, and his moderators, from the Mega Database of Turbo Dambase. Without ever asking me permission for this. And now Piet is so nice to give ‘his’ permission to allow the distribution of ‘his’ database. Of course, I do not agree with this.

The database of Turbo Dambase has a long history of 25 years. The database has now 460 thousand games. It took a tremendous effort to build this database and it’s a huge investment. The Mega Database is protected by copyrights. I give no permission to take large parts of this database to make it freely available in any form. Please read this article (http://www.ivir.nl/wetten/nl/databankenwet.html) for the law which protects the producers of databases.

I wish Piet and Bert show more respect for the database of Turbo Dambase. There is an increasing trend in the draughts world that everything has to be free and open. I have no problem with that. But please only give away for free the things you created yourself. Do not give away things for free that you have not created yourself.

Klaas Bor

[Piet Bouma]

I have had earlier in 2012 a large e-mail discussion with Klaas Bor on this subject.

I want to state here that I have never copied from the MegaDatabase. I have never bought the MegaDatabase neither have I (or had) possession of a copy of the MegaDatabase. Games I have inserted came from other sources (internet, websites, organisations etc, etc.).
For example the Royal Dutch Draughts Federation send me after games were played in .pdn (because I can’t “read” the cqg-bin etc. from Turbodambase) of the semi-finals Dutch Championship 2012. I know they have made it with Turbodambase and the games also are in the MegaDatabase. Then I can’t publish this games on Toernooibase?

Is a game which is in the MegaDatabase of Klaas, also his property, he owns the game? I think rather the players who have played the game are owners of the game.

And what if a game (all games) which is inserted by the Surinam Draughts Federation in Toernooibase?
Has Klaas the right to copy to his MegaDatabase?
For example:

Event "Kampioenschap van Suriname 2009"]
[Site ""]
[Section "Finale"]
[White "Nannan,S. (Sewpal)"]
[Black "Tay,J. (Jimmy)"]
[Result "0-2"]
[GameType "20"]
[Round "4"]
[Date "2009.06.03"]
[WhiteTime ""]
[BlackTime ""]
[WhiteUrl "http://toernooibase.kndb.nl/Afbeeldinge ... s/7573.jpg"]
[BlackUrl "http://toernooibase.kndb.nl/Afbeeldinge ... s/7567.jpg"]
[DamboTopLine "Kampioenschap van Suriname 2009 Round 4"]
[DamboBottomLine "S. Nannan - J. Tay 0-2"]
1. 32-28 17-21 2. 37-32 19-23 3. 28x19 14x23 4. 41-37 10-14 5. 34-30 21-26
6. 47-41 14-19 7. 30-25 11-17 8. 25x14 19x10 9. 32-28 23x32 10. 37x28 26x37
11. 41x32 6-11 12. 46-41 1-6 13. 41-37 16-21 14. 39-34 18-22 15. 44-39 11-16
16. 50-44 21-27 17. 32x21 17x26 18. 28x17 12x21 19. 33-28 7-11 20. 39-33 13-18
21. 37-31 26x37 22. 42x31 21-26 23. 38-32 26x37 24. 32x41 9-13 25. 34-29 11-17
26. 43-38 10-14 27. 44-39 5-10 28. 39-34 4-9 29. 41-37 17-21 30. 37-32 6-11
31. 49-43 21-26 32. 36-31 26x37 33. 32x41 11-17 34. 29-24 18-22 35. 28-23 22-27
36. 34-29 14-20 37. 40-34 17-21 38. 33-28 13-18 39. 23x12 8x17 40. 35-30 20-25
41. 29-23 9-13 42. 34-29 25x34 43. 29x40 27-31 44. 40-34 31-36 45. 41-37 21-26
46. 37-31 36x27 47. 38-32 27x49 48. 45-40 49x19 49. 23x5 13-18 50. 5-19 3-8
51. 19-14 8-13 52. 34-29 13-19 53. 14x21 16x27 54. 29-24 27-31 55. 24-19 31-36
56. 19-13 36-41 57. 13-9 41-36 58. 9-4 46x14 59. 4-18 15-20 60. 48-43 20-25 *

Here you see a typo from the Surinam official who inserted the game in Toernooibase. The move must be 57….41-46. So the pdn was not complete readable for a PDN-viewer from the move 57. 13-9.

On-line database Turbodambase:

Nannan,S. (Sewpal) 1964
Tay,J. (Jimmy) 2069
Uitslag: 0-2
Toernooi: SUR-ch 2009
Ronde: 4
Datum: 03-06-2009
1.32-28 17-21 2.37-32 19-23 3.28x19 14x23 4.41-37 10-14 5.34-30 21-26 6.47-41 14-19 7.30-25 11-17 8.25x14 19x10 9.32-28 23x32 10.37x28 26x37 11.41x326-11 12.46-41 1-6 13.41-37 16-21 14.39-34 18-22 15.44-39 11-16 16.50-44 21-27 17.32x21 17x26 18.28x17 12x21 19.33-28 7-11 20.39-33 13-18 21.37-3126x37 22.42x31 21-26 23.38-32 26x37 24.32x41 9-13 25.34-29 11-17 26.43-3810-14 27.44-39 5-10 28.39-34 4-9 29.41-37 17-21 30.37-32 6-11 31.49-43 21-2632.36-31 26x37 33.32x41 11-17 34.29-24 18-22 35.28-23 22-27 36.34-29 14-2037.40-34 17-21 38.33-28 13-18 39.23x12 8x17 40.35-30 20-25 41.29-23 9-1342.34-29 25x34 43.29x40 27-31 44.40-34 31-36 45.41-37 21-26 46.37-31 36x2747.38-32 27x49 48.45-40 49x19 49.23x5 13-18 50.5-19 3-8 51.19-14 8-13 52.34-29 13-19 53.14x21 16x27 54.29-24 27-31 55.24-19 31-36 56.19-13 36-41 57.13-9

Here it stops (remarkable) at 57.13-9. No doubt that Klaas copies games from Toernooibase. (Otherwise, if he had notationform he had found the typo.)
Which was also clear from the WMSG 2008 in Beijing, where a lot of games were directly inserted online in Beijing into Toernooibase and also could be found on the next MegaDatabase. That’s something I read on the Dutch version of the forum.

Has Klaas the right to copy games from Toernooibase?
I think he has the right because Toernooibase/Piet Bouma not owns a game. And I think MegaDatabase/Turbodambase/Klaas either.

This will be my only posting on this subject on the Forum. Klaas knows my opinion from the e-mail discussion we had.

Piet Bouma.

[Klaas Bor]

Indeed we had a large-email discussion about this subject in 2012. But I had to give a reaction on this forum now because of the intention to distribute all the games of Toernooibase ‘as Piet gave permission for it’.

The reaction of Piet is off subject. I not state I have entered all the games into Mega Database myself. My point is that we (my family) have worked for 25 years to build op the Mega Database. We did a tremendous job to create this database and it’s a huge investment. Resulting in a database which is unique in the draughts world. To protect these kind of investments a law has been created. You can read the law at http://www.ivir.nl/wetten/nl/databankenwet.html. Because of this law the Mega Database is protected and I do not give permission to make large parts of the Mega Database freely available in any form.

This will be my only posting on this subject too. Piet knows my opinion about this subject very well.

Klaas Bor

[BertTuyt]

It is without saying that I have a deep respect for Piet and Klaas.
Both people deserve the credits for what they do, and their contribution towards our (small) Draughts community.

When Klaas started with TurboDambase I assume that the (centralized) model he choose, was valid and logical within the context and boundary conditions of the technological capabilities at that time.
For many people the internet is a given, but 20 years ago there where probably few people who could anticipate and forecast the progress and impact of the (open) internet.
And these days new forms of collaboration are established and challenge the "old way of doing". To name a few, open source, communities, Wikipedia, crowd funding......
One should not close the eyes for these changes, which also imply opportunities.
For this reason it is valid to question which model would work best for our draughts community, with respect to the collection and distribution of games.

Without a verdict, it could be that an approach like Toernooibase , which is based on the open collaboration of a large community is not principally wrong.
At least I believe that it would be very efficient, (also taken into account options like using tablet computers for collecting and communicate draughts games), to use the power of a huge group of people. In this way we at least create a huge game base, without a huge time investment of individual people, where in principle everyone (or no-one) is the sole owner.

Im quite sure that for many years we already have a situation where the same people provide draughts games to both Turbodambase and Toernooibase. Next to that there are certainly situations where people extract games from Toernooibase and feed it into the Turbodambase and the other way around. And basically I think this is okish..

Today Turbodambase is closed on 3 levels:
1) Central data entry (which also has advantages in terms of error checking and quality).
2) A closed Turbodambase, at least the internal format is not shared.
3) A closed protocol between Turbodambase and the (internal) engine Flits.

Also here I don't believe that in the longer term such a closed/defensive approach based on a proprietary protocol, will be the most effective/efficient way in adding value, protecting value, and creating a customer benefit and customer satisfaction.

I truly believe that if Piet and Klaas could find a way of close collaboration, we would create a huge force for the overall benefit of our small and not increasing draughts community.
I would welcome any initiative here, and I'm convinced that with the combined motivation, intelligence and drive of these people, we can create miracles for all.
As the definition of madness is doing the same and expecting a different result, it might be that existing business-models might be re-evaluated and re-designed.

Bert

[Klaas Bor]

Bert, I agree that working together is the best way and I wish that it will happen.

But I have a big problem with the way Piet, you and maybe more people, look at the Mega Database. The database is not a bunch of bits and bytes which you can copy in a minute and then can use freely. I see this attitude as a contempt for the work that has been done. When you have to enter the 460 thousand games, with a speed of let’s say 15 per hour, it will take 30 thousand hours. Multiply this with a normal wage. Add to this the maintenance of the database. Because it’s not only entering games, it’s also putting everything together (consistent spelling of players, tournaments throughout the database etc.). If you add this up the costs of the database is half million euros at least (500 thousand euros). We are talking about a big investment here. Fortunately, the law which I described before, understands this and agrees that these kind of investments need to be protected.

I react on this forum because of the intention of Bert to distribute all the games of Toernooibase. And to remind Bert and Piet that at least half of these games are taken from Turbo Dambase. And what is the next step? Distributing the complete Mega Database? Thanks Klaas Bor, for all your work done, here you have a bunch of flowers and a ‘boekenbon’, and goodbye. That’s not the way it should be. I wish there could be find acceptable ways to collaborate and work together.

Klaas Bor

[Rein Halbersma]

Bert, I agree that working together is the best way and I wish that it will happen.

But I have a big problem with the way Piet, you and maybe more people, look at the Mega Database. The database is not a bunch of bits and bytes which you can copy in a minute and then can use freely. I see this attitude as a contempt for the work that has been done. When you have to enter the 460 thousand games, with a speed of let’s say 15 per hour, it will take 30 thousand hours. Multiply this with a normal wage. Add to this the maintenance of the database. Because it’s not only entering games, it’s also putting everything together (consistent spelling of players, tournaments throughout the database etc.). If you add this up the costs of the database is half million euros at least (500 thousand euros). We are talking about a big investment here. Fortunately, the law which I described before, understands this and agrees that these kind of investments need to be protected.

I react on this forum because of the intention of Bert to distribute all the games of Toernooibase. And to remind Bert and Piet that at least half of these games are taken from Turbo Dambase. And what is the next step? Distributing the complete Mega Database? Thanks Klaas Bor, for all your work done, here you have a bunch of flowers and a ‘boekenbon’, and goodbye. That’s not the way it should be. I wish there could be find acceptable ways to collaborate and work together.

Klaas Bor

Did you enter all these games yourself? I know at least one referee of the KNDB club competition that enters these games as soon as he gets the players notation forms. What about foreign tournaments? What about players copyrights? Who gave you the monopoly to those games?

Futhermore, Truus also comes with a large database of games (up to date until late 90s), and with many more queries than TDam (e.g. pieces located in certain regions, very useful). Did you sue Keetman under copyright law?

[BertTuyt]

Futhermore, TRUUS also comes with a large database of games (up to date until late 90s), and with many more queries than TDam (e.g. pieces located in certain regions, very useful).

Rein, by accident I was thinking the same (partly)....
I started with DQL (I have posted details regarding this initiative here several times) because I needed for my own research (I'm working on finding and learning patterns for the evaluation function) more complex queries.

As a legal owner of Truus and TBase (TurboDamBase) and others...., I was thinking that it is basically a pity that Stef did no go forward with his initiative, and that TRUUS 1.0 was the only version made available. The Game Database of TRUUS is (if I remember well) around 180K+ games, which is a nice collection. Unfortunately the Database capabilities of TRUUS are limited and there is not an option ( Like TBase) to extract files (for example .pdn) from this Database, and use them for your own purpose, and/or integrate them into another database.

For this reason I looked at the TRUUS Database files yesterday evening, if they made sense to me, and if I could (easily) detect the underlying architecture and structure. To my surprise the format is relatively straightforward (there are still some things to find out, but anyway) and I guess it would be possible to write a PDN-extracter or PDN-converter in less than 2 weeks.

As the jury is still debating , regarding the question if a database of Draughts Games is protected by the databankenwet (You can read the law at http://www.ivir.nl/wetten/nl/databankenwet.html.), I also had a look at this law, and also browsed several discussions related to this law.

I'm not a legal specialist but (if my interpretation is right) the law also states that after 15 years the protection is cleared.
If this is true, and assume for a few seconds (as a mental exercise) that a database of Draughts Games is initially protected via the databankenwet, this protection is not forever (as this is the case with many law protected items) !

Rein mentioned the TRUUS database, which was included in the TRUUS Engine package, and which was released in 1999, and hereafter there was no longer any update/maintenance of this database.
Given the fact that it is now 2014 , and if my mathematics are all right than 2014 - 1999 is 15.....

Bert

[BertTuyt]

Klaas, first of all thanks for your post. Herewith a few reactions...

But I have a big problem with the way Piet, you and maybe more people, look at the Mega Database

Klaas, as you are a regular reader of this forum and also most likley my posts (as your reaction was quite fast after my initial post), you will recognize that in all posts I have expressed my respect for your work, and that I always qualified TurboDambase and its datbabase as a good product. I'm not aware that I ever discussed to distribute your Mega Database.

When you have to enter the 460 thousand games, with a speed of let’s say 15 per hour, it will take 30 thousand hours.

I guess your mathematics are right. But my point is that it is madness these days of open internet, and fast communication, cloud storage, ...., to do it yourself. Therefore I welcome the Toernooibase initiative, which provides collaboration amongst a large group of people to share games. And basically I'm sure that for Piet it is still time consuming.

I did a quick check in my (legal) Mega2005 database and found out that around 230K games are from the period 1000-2000, and that hereafter the Database grows with 14K-16K games a year. If one would use to combined effort off say 100 arbiters or representatives of every Draughts club around, than every person needs to enter (into for example Toernooibase) 140 to 160 games every year, than the overall time spent in 1 year for every person (based on a speed of 15 per hour) 10-11 hours, or less than 1 hour every month !
And with new initiatives like using tablets, it would be a push button effort when the game is finished.

So my point is basically, that if one organizes game entry in a collaborative way (like Toernooibase), then the time consuming part (other then Piet) would be acceptable. So we have already (for many years) reached a point where people use in a collaborative way Toernooibase, and that (as also mentioned in a previous post) people feed games in Toernooibase and Turbodambase simultanously, or extract games from Toernooibase towards TurboDambase or the other way around.

For this reason I'm not sure whether it is possible to claim exclusivity these days for these games. Nor do I believe that one could defend a time consuming approach, if there is an alternative (as already mentioned) for input of these games. The last X years, there are dual options (Toernooibase and Turbodambase) available.

If Draughts games are subject to the databankenwet (and again the jury is still debating), than there is a time-limitation on the protection. I guess the background for this time limitation is that technology is improving. Collecting data could be time consuming in the past, but new ways of working and new technology could drastically change this situation. Therefore there is a limited time that people who create a databank can commercially benefit from their investment, and a pay-back of 15 years , is therefore most likely chosen. Hereafter (impact new technology) one has to find new ways for adding value and/or adjust/optimize the existing business models.

Take the Wikipedia. Due to the combined effort of zillions of people the encyclopedia makers were confronted with less income and had to change their business models. And I'm sure that they have spent a significant time in creating such a database. However open collaboration could drastically change the name of the game.

Bert

[Klaas Bor]

The reactions of Rein and Bert confirm I was afraid of how some people think about Turbo Dambase, the database of games and the subscription. Turbo Dambase is not a free product and that is a shame. Everything in the draughts world has to be free. But we not live in paradise. When Rein and Bert works for their bosses, do they get paid for their work? I think so. And that is the only thing I was talking about in my previous posts. The point is respect for the work done in the last 25 years. And a normal financial rewarding for that. And therefore not to distribute the database for free. Is that so difficult to understand?

There are new modern ways of entering games. And I like that. The more people help the better it is. When all tournament organisations enter the games themselves, and all players of the Dutch team championships enter the games themselves, there is no need for a subscription anymore.

But at this moment the subscription is still valid. Thanks to a small group of players, who are willing to pay for a good service, all the games of the Dutch championships are entered. Maybe a little bit slow, but complete and with a good quality. Let’s compare this to the modern way of entering games, and the large potential group of 1200 players who can enter these games. Not one single time it happened that all games of a round was completely entered into Toernooibase. Not even one single round it happened that all games of the most important division (ereklasse) was completely entered into Toernooibase. That is not to blame Toernooibase, which is a great website. It makes clear that it is not so easy as Bert suggests. Until now, I can work harder then 1200 players together. But the best way would be that all players enter the games themselves, for example with ipads, because that is the future. So I am not against modern technologies, it’s just the opposite.

We can have a long discussion but I think the points are clear now.

Klaas Bor

[BertTuyt]

The reactions of Rein and Bert confirm I was afraid of how some people think about Turbo Dambase, the database of games and the subscription. Turbo Dambase is not a free product and that is a shame. Everything in the draughts world has to be free.

Klaas, you read things which I didn't put in writing, therefore again the point I want to make.

1) I often said that to me Turbo Dambase is a great product, I have deep respect for your work, and nowhere I indicated or suggested that Turbo Dambase is for free or should be for free. As you know, I bought TRUUS and TurboDambase. People will buy products if the believe in the added value compared with the free alternatives. Therefore people buy Kingsrow for example, although the Dam 2.7 alternative is for free.

2) I only say that we have a different situation these days with Turbo Dambase and Toernooibase and another collaboration model.

3) Including new ways for distribution and upload (like using IPads)

4) Therefore I believe that the exclusivity claim, which you have, can be challenged. People will feed in games in different ways these days, Toernooibase and TurboDambase and will borrow from each other. Therefore there are mutual claims who inserted what first, but it is not relevant anymore.

5) This doesn't indicate that people paying for a subscription is illegal, nor that there are no longer people for which a subscription is not relevant. But also downloads from Toernooibase is legal. People will use the subscription option as long if they recognize the added value. Its not to me to judge this, the market mechanism will decide.

If I would sent all the books I know with games of Sybrands to China, and ask someone to type it into pdn for Toernooibase, would you say that is not allowed, because the games are already in TurboDambase ?

If someone plays a game from Turbo Dambase, and another person types it into .pdn and then upload it into ToernooiBase is that illegal?

If the law stated that you can only use the rights for 15 years, and after 15 years the information is into the open, is that illegal?

And what about the Truus database which contains 180K games, and was issued in 1999, which is 15 years ago, and if the databanken law can/should be applied. Is sharing that Database illegal?
And maybe, in the hypothetical case, even if he copied it from TurboDambase (for which no-one has proof, and I will at least also never suggest that), than again based on the 15 years restriction, the Database can be made public available?


The point I want to make is, if you are trying to defend the indefensible (selling encyclopedia, in the Wikipedia era) ??

Bert

[Rein Halbersma]

The reactions of Rein and Bert confirm I was afraid of how some people think about Turbo Dambase, the database of games and the subscription. Turbo Dambase is not a free product and that is a shame. Everything in the draughts world has to be free. But we not live in paradise. When Rein and Bert works for their bosses, do they get paid for their work? I think so. And that is the only thing I was talking about in my previous posts. The point is respect for the work done in the last 25 years. And a normal financial rewarding for that. And therefore not to distribute the database for free. Is that so difficult to understand?

I don't think I have stated how I think about Turbo Dambase. But since you make assumptions about it, here it is, for the record. I think Turbo Dambase the analysis program is a great program for which I am glad I paid the price that you ask. It's the most expensive piece of draughts software I have bought, but it's worth it.

Similarly, the Mega Database is a great collection of games. However, before I can determine that you actually own all these games, I asked several question -which you didn't answer yet. How it was compiled? Did you do it all yourself? How big a percentage was your work? What about foreign tournaments? Computer tournaments? Did you ask all the contributors for a transfer of copyright? The KNDB makes it mandatory for players to surrender their notation forms, but surely you cannot expect them to transfer copyright -and exclusively to you even!- at the same time as well? And then the big question: do you consider the Truus database a violation of your claimed copyright? Regardless of ownership, since I'm not an active player, not having the most recent updates is OK for me, which is why I tend to buy the games every few years or so.

But please, don't try to put words into my mouth that I expect you to work for free or that I would consider distributing your Database. I don't. However, I also don't expect a highly skilled IT professional like you to personally enter games and get the same hourly wage as you do for programming. Why not hire a few draughts programmers from lower wage countries (Thailand, any of the African draughts playing nations)? And I have good experiences with Google Drive's character recognition for scanned PDF files.

If you want to be valued in terms of money, you should create more value by adding interesting stuff to the database. E.g., the most valuable contributions to TDam recently have been the online tournament tables, the endgame book annotations (btw, did you get the copyright transferred from the Moser family?) I would love to see those tournament table functionality appear in the Turbo Dambase program. Chess databases also contain high-quality grandmaster analysis. Why not hook up with the Volkskrant to make all the Sijbrands columns available into TurboDambase? That would be valuable stuff.

[Klaas Bor]

Bert, if I read things wrong then sorry for that. Maybe I am to upset about the way it goes.

The discussion here started after the post with the intention to publish the complete database of Toernooibase and give it away for free. A database from which at least half the games are copied from Turbo Dambase, without ever asking me about it.

I hope you can understand that makes me upset because the next step probably will be the publishing of the complete Mega Database for free. That is also what you suggest in your post now. In your eyes the Mega Database is outlawed. Because there is no copyright per game, you can sent them to China etc. You also mention a period of 15 year, but this period does not apply, see the law Artikel 6, point 3. I appreciate much your say you have respect for the work done. But the problem is that I cannot pay the rent with respect, it is not a legal tender.

Your point is that I am defending the indefensible. Why do you think the law ‘databankenwet’ is created in the first place? To protect databases against illegal copying. I can prove without a doubt that I and my family have worked 25 years at the database, that we spent a gigantic number of hours, that is a huge investment and because of that is automatically protected by this law.

You don’t have to explain to me that times are changing. Your questions about one pdn this and other person that etc. are completely irrelevant. It is the collection as a whole that is protected.
I know the subscription model of Turbo Dambase does not last long. If it is not needed anymore, no problem, that is not what I am defending. I am modern too. But you cannot forget the past and throw away everything on the street. If this really is going to happen the draughts world should shame itself very deeply. Why not give hard workers what they deserve? And I am not only speaking about myself in this case.

Who do you think have entered the games in the Truus database? Do you think Stef Keetman himself? Or was it done by a group of nice dwarfs?

I wish to close the discussion soon because it takes much time and repeating the same arguments again and again is not fruitful. If this post sounds a bit aggressive then forgive me, that is not my intention. As I stated in earlier post I also wish to work together.

Klaas Bor

[Rein Halbersma]

Who do you think have entered the games in the Truus database? Do you think Stef Keetman himself? Or was it done by a group of nice dwarfs?

For years, the Truus program was for sale at the KDNB webshop. If you haven't sued Keetman or the KNDB for actually breaking your copyright, why are you making such a noise at the mere suggestion of another such precedent now?

[Klaas Bor]

How much of the games my father, my wife and I entered into the computer ourself, with our own bare hands? I estimate about 70 procent. The other 30 procent come from other sources. I mention one person as an example, but there are more players with big contributions: Frans Kalsbeek. He has entered a lot of games and always sent them to me. He was very active collecting provincial team championships and put them into the computer. Games from other sources have to be checked for spelling of players and tournaments and dates. It is not so that everything from outside can be inserted into the database without looking. That would create a messy database. This was also an important responsibility for me; to create a consistent database, which is time consuming.

Yes, I consider the Truus database as a violation of copyright. See my previous answer to Bert.

When I did the calculating a few post before, I used the minimum wage. Even with the minimum wage applied the costs are at least half million euros already. And what do you think I have earned in all these years? Adding together the programming hours, the creating of the database. Selling the program and subscriptions and subtracting the costs? Maybe 3 euros per hour. Not more. My feeling, but maybe I am wrong about this, is that many players think I do this to become a rich man. Of course I like that, but it is not reality. Should a programmer enter games? Better not. But I did it a lot and I do it a lot. It’s a crime and as I get older I hate it more and more. So I bless the day all the games are entered automatically and the subscription can end. Why have I entered all these games then? Well, I created a database program. And that was very funny. A database program without data is worthless. So I started entering games too. But the rewarding of this work was always far below par. That’s the reason I get angry when people talk so light hearted about the database and that it should be free. I deserve a better rewarding so I can also spent more time at programming for the draughts sport.

I think the online tournaments tables on the website are nice but not valuable. Because you cannot trust them. The are a result of calculating the scores of the games available. For good tournament tables please use Toernooibase.

The endgame book of Moser and the errors in the games are indeed good values. Have I asked for permission for the book of Moser? Of course. I asked Rene Runhaar. The mother of Rene is the daughter of J.F. Moser. Rene has asked his mother and she gave permission to publish the book on the website. Same holds for the books of Jos Stokkel. First I asked his permission and after that I put his books on the website. Entering analyses of Ton Sijbrands into Turbo Dambase? I like to do it. And I already asked Ton for permission. But he does not give permission so this is not going to happen. Do I always ask organizers of tournaments for permission to add the games to the Mega Database? Many times yes, sometimes no. Many times I know from the past that organizers are positive about Turbo Dambase and they sent me the games. If organizers have no time they sent me the games and I put them into the computer. For example, many times I travelled to Den Haag to get the notations from Fred Ivens. Many times I travelled to Nijmegen to get the notations from Frans Kalsbeek or Paul Visser. We have put so many games into the computer in this house here, I think nobody can imagine.

Rein I hope that all your questions are answered now.

Klaas Bor