A famous classical position

[Ed Gilbert]

I have been looking at the Woldouby position and I am conviced that it is a draw. The reason is very simple. 8 moves from the position along the principal variation, a database draw search score is obtained on a 1-minute search, and every black move along that variation up to the 8th move is effectively forced. By that I mean that all other black moves either put black at a disadvantage, or lead to positions where Kingsrow sees an immediate database draw. The variation that draws is this one:

[Event "Woldouby position"]
[FEN "W:W25,27,28,30,32,33,34,35,37,38:B12,13,14,16,18,19,21,23,24,26."]
1. 34-29 23-34 2. 30-39 18-23 3. 27-22 12-18 4. 39-34 18-27 5. 34-30 13-18 6. 28-22 23-28 7. 32-12 27-7 8. 38-32 {Kingsrow sees a database draw from here forward} 7-12 9. 33-29 24-33 10. 30-24 19-30 11. 35-24 33-39 12. 24-20 14-19 13. 20-15 39-44 14. 15-10 44-50 15. 25-20 ... draw

Since I don't think anyone else has 8 and 9 piece databases, I turned these off to see what a program could see using smaller dbs. Using a 7-piece db, all of black's alternatives are still seen as forced, and a database draw is obtained on an 8-minute search of the position after 8. 38-32. Using only up to 6 piece databases, the position after move 8 looks strong for black, showing a search score after several minutes that is a bit greater than the value of a man. Additionally, after one of the alternative black moves, 12-17 22x11 16x7 at move 3, nearly 15 minutes of searching is required before a draw is seen with a 6pc db. All other black moves still looked forced.

-- Ed

[TAILLE]

I have been looking at the Woldouby position and I am conviced that it is a draw. The reason is very simple. 8 moves from the position along the principal variation, a database draw search score is obtained on a 1-minute search, and every black move along that variation up to the 8th move is effectively forced. By that I mean that all other black moves either put black at a disadvantage, or lead to positions where Kingsrow sees an immediate database draw. The variation that draws is this one:

[Event "Woldouby position"]
[FEN "W:W25,27,28,30,32,33,34,35,37,38:B12,13,14,16,18,19,21,23,24,26."]
1. 34-29 23-34 2. 30-39 18-23 3. 27-22 12-18 4. 39-34 18-27 5. 34-30 13-18 6. 28-22 23-28 7. 32-12 27-7 8. 38-32 {Kingsrow sees a database draw from here forward} 7-12 9. 33-29 24-33 10. 30-24 19-30 11. 35-24 33-39 12. 24-20 14-19 13. 20-15 39-44 14. 15-10 44-50 15. 25-20 ... draw

Since I don't think anyone else has 8 and 9 piece databases, I turned these off to see what a program could see using smaller dbs. Using a 7-piece db, all of black's alternatives are still seen as forced, and a database draw is obtained on an 8-minute search of the position after 8. 38-32. Using only up to 6 piece databases, the position after move 8 looks strong for black, showing a search score after several minutes that is a bit greater than the value of a man. Additionally, after one of the alternative black moves, 12-17 22x11 16x7 at move 3, nearly 15 minutes of searching is required before a draw is seen with a 6pc db. All other black moves still looked forced.

-- Ed

Ed,
Your endgame database is very powerfull. With only a 6 pieces database Damy is not able to prove that 8.38-32 allow the draw; for Damy 8.38-32 and 8.33-28 are evaluated to practically the same value, around the value of a man.
Just to satisfy my curiosity do you know the result of 8.33-28 ?
Can white obtain also the draw (see one of my prevous post) ?
Gérard

[Ed Gilbert]

Just to satisfy my curiosity do you know the result of 8.33-28 ?
Can white obtain also the draw (see one of my prevous post) ?

Yes, 33-28 is also a draw. The continuation is

8. 33-28 24-29 9. 38-33 29x38 10. 37-32 38x27 11. 30-24 19x30 12. 35x24 26-31 13. 28-23 27-32 14. 24-19 32-37 15. 19x10

and now the position is an 8-piece draw.

Edit: Which is the same position colors reversed as the Jansens - H. Meijer game.

-- Ed