Lettre ouverte a la FMJD

Fabrice MAGGIORE · Post by **Fabrice MAGGIORE** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 17:02

Lettre ouverte ÃƒÂ la FMJD

La Fédération Mondiale de JEU DE DAMES a décidé d'ouvrir le champ ÃƒÂ un plus large éventail de nations représentatives pour le Championnat du Monde 2005.

Dans les divers post mis sur ce forum, Mme BUBBI a précisé que chaque nation autorisée ÃƒÂ partiper, serait celle qui se serait acquittée de sa cotisation annuelle.

Dans un souci de clarification, concernant le cas de la Guadeloupe affiliée ÃƒÂ la PADCF, la guadeloupe a toujours payé son affiliation par l'intermédiaire de ses joueurs ( FORBIN et MAGGIORE ) lors des différents panaméricains ( GRENADE, HAITI et CANADA).

Jusqu'ÃƒÂ présent, la Guadeloupe n'était pas considérée comme une nation ÃƒÂ part entière, mais vu son extratéritorialité et la position affichée par la FMJD au regard des échanges avec Mr ALIAS et les posts émis par Madame BUBBI sur ce forum, il semble que la FMJD ait revu sa position en considérant la Guadeloupe comme une nation ÃƒÂ part entière.

Partant de ces deux considérations , rien ne s'oppose aujourd'hui ÃƒÂ ce que le représentant de la guadeloupe qui remplit les conditions de qualification au regard du PANAM d'HAITI 2004 soit présent aux PAYS-BAS fin 2005.

Malgré des échanges avec le président de la PANAM et un mail adressée ÃƒÂ Madame BUBBI, la demande officielle de la Guadeloupe pour que son réprésentant puisse participer au championnat du monde est restée lettre morte.

Il est regrettable qu'il faille exposer ces opinions et réitérer cette demande par la voie du Forum de la FMJD.

Peut-ÃƒÂªtre aujourdh'ui, la FMJD va -t-elle daigner répondre officiellement et avoir une position claire, nette et surtout sincère sans tourner en rond en précisant soit la non-reconnaissance, soit le non paiement, soit les deux ÃƒÂ la fois.

Amitiès

Letter open to the FMJD

The World Draughts Federation decided to open the field with a broader range of nations representative for the Championship of the World 2005.

In various the post put on this forum, Mrs. BUBBI specified that each authorized nation with partiper, would be that which would have discharged its annual contribution.

In a preoccupation with a clarification, concerning the case of the Guadeloupe affiliated to the PADCF, the Guadeloupe always paid its affiliation via its players (FORBIN and MAGGIORE) at the time of the different Pan-American ones (GRENADE, HAITI and CANADA).

Until now, the Guadeloupe was not regarded as a nation with whole share, but considering its extrateritoriality and the position posted by the FMJD taking into consideration exchange with Mr. ALIAS and the posts emitted by Mrs BUBBI on this forum, it seems that the FMJD re-examined its position by regarding the Guadeloupe as a nation with whole share.

On the basis of these two considerations, nothing is opposed today so that the representative of the Guadeloupe which meets the conditions of qualification taking into consideration PANAM of HAITI 2004 is present at the NETHERLANDS at the end of 2005.

In spite of exchanges with the president of the PANAM and an e-mail addressed to Mrs BUBBI, the official request of the Guadeloupe so that its representative can take part in the championship of the world remained dead letter.

It is regrettable that it is necessary to expose these opinions and to reiterate this request by the way of the Forum of the FMJD.

Perhaps today, the FMJD it will condescend to answer officially and to have a clear, clear and especially sincere position without turning in round by specifying either the not-recognition, or nonthe payment, or both at the same time.

Friendships

TC FMJD · Post by **TC FMJD** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 11:56

The represented players out of the panamérican zone are coming out of the panamchampionship 2003. The first 5 with a maximum of two out of a country.

Hanco Elenbaas · Post by **Hanco Elenbaas** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 12:13

TC FMJD wrote:The represented players out of the panamérican zone are coming out of the panamchampionship 2003. The first 5 with a maximum of two out of a country.

You miss the point.
Fabrice Maggiore finished 5th in the 12th Panam on Haiti in 2004. But, because he is from Guadeloupe, he didn't qualify for the WC. While Guadeloupe is paying its FMJD(PADCF)-contribution.
One of Maggiore's questions is: For what Guadeloupe is paying contribution? and another: Why is it possible to qualify for the World Championship when you are from Curaçao and why not when you are from Guadeloupe, what's the difference?

Final Standing 12th Panam Haiti 2004

Code: Select all

1 Anthony Alexandre      11 7 - 3 - 1 17  

2 Louiceus Shang Wong    11 5 - 6 - 0 16  

3 Ricardo Pierre         11 5 - 3 - 3 13  

4 Alix Louis             11 4 - 5 - 2 13  

5 Fabrice Maggiore       11 3 - 7 - 1 13 

6 Lelio Marcos MI        11 3 - 6 - 2 12  

7 Carlos Lorevil         11 4 - 3 - 4 11  

8 Dickson Maughn MF      11 2 - 6 - 3 10  

9 Lafontant Cherenfant   11 3 - 4 - 4 10  

10 Louis Gilles          11 1 - 7 - 3  9  

11 Paulvin Simon         11 1 - 3 - 7  5  

12 Eugene Britt          11 0 - 3 - 8  3

Website 13th Panam in Montreal, http://www.fqjr.qc.ca/dames/100/panam_2005.html#partic
which started at July 12th, says:

NOTE: The following players qualified for the 2005 World Championships during the Panam held in Cap HaÃƒÂ¯tien in 2004:
Haiti: Anthony Alexandre and Shang Wong Louiceus
Brazil: Lelio Marcos
Curaçao: Carlos Lorevil
Trinidad-Tobago: Dickson Maughn

The same qualifying process will be used during the 2005 Panam where the 5 best players (with a maximum of 2 per Country) will be qualified for the 2006-2007 World Championships.

So Fabrice Maggiore ended 5th (the first four were from Haiti) and didn't qualify, while the numbers 6, 7 and 8 will go to Amsterdam.

What's the difference between Dutchman Johan Koster who represented Curaçao in the WC 2001 in Moscow and Fabrice Maggiore? What's the difference between Curaçao and Guadeloupe? Curaçao is Dutch territory, Guadeloupe is French. Why doesn't Guadeloupe have the same rights as Curaçao?

Not stimulating for draughts on Guadeloupe! Remember: every year there's a wonderful international tournament in Guadeloupe.

Jacques PERMAL · Post by **Jacques PERMAL** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 18:10

Hello HANCO,

GUADELOUPE is a french "department" like CALVADOS (CAEN) or SEINE-MARITIME (ROUEN).
According to FRENCH LAW, sportmen and sportwomen from all "departments" should be representatives of their country only through french qualification systems (i.e FRANCE CHAMPIONSHIP).

If a guadeloupean wish to play WC, he (she) must qualify for it through FRANCE CHAMPIONSHIP.

Mid-80's, FRENCH government allowed sportmen and sportwomen of GUADELOUPE, MARTINIQUE and FRENCH GUYANA to play some regional competitions (CONCACAF, PANAMERICAN competitions) under french colours.

Hanco Elenbaas · Post by **Hanco Elenbaas** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 19:15

Jacques PERMAL wrote:Hello HANCO,

GUADELOUPE is a french "department" like CALVADOS (CAEN) or SEINE-MARITIME (ROUEN).
According to FRENCH LAW, sportmen and sportwomen from all "departments" should be representatives of their country only through french qualification systems (i.e FRANCE CHAMPIONSHIP).

If a guadeloupean wish to play WC, he (she) must qualify for it through FRANCE CHAMPIONSHIP.

Mid-80's, FRENCH government allowed sportmen and sportwomen of GUADELOUPE, MARTINIQUE and FRENCH GUYANA to play some regional competitions (CONCACAF, PANAMERICAN competitions) under french colours.

Very strange decision from the French government Jacques!!
If, for example, the Dutch government would act as peculiar as the French, Raoul Alias and Nelsen Angela, would have to qualify in The Netherlands.
First they should come over to play the championship of Amsterdam, ca. 9 rounds, one round a week in Amsterdam. After having finished 1st or 2nd there, they must do the championship of the district Noord-Holland, two games every week, during 6 to 8 weeks. When they finish on one of the two first places in Noord-Holland they would qualify for the Dutch semi-finals, which last about two months. And after that they also have to come over from Curaçao to do the Dutch finals which lasts two weeks.
You have to be a multi-millionaire (with a lot of time) to reach the World championship when you live in Guadeloupe, according to Franch rules.

Time to wake up in France.

Jacques PERMAL · Post by **Jacques PERMAL** » Fri Jul 15, 2005 19:34

GUADELOUPE, MARTINIQUE, GUYANA and REUNION have not a large autonomy like ABC ARCHIPELAGO.

TAHITI, NEW CALEDONIA, SAINT-PIERRE & MIQUELON have large autonomy. TAHITI and NEW CALEDONIA could qualify for any WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP (of NATIONS) through their continents qualification systems because they live under other statute with very large autonomy. It isn't allowed for GUADELOUPE.

Hanco Elenbaas · Post by **Hanco Elenbaas** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 04:45

Jacques PERMAL wrote:GUADELOUPE, MARTINIQUE, GUYANA and REUNION have not a large autonomy like ABC ARCHIPELAGO.

TAHITI, NEW CALEDONIA, SAINT-PIERRE & MIQUELON have large autonomy. TAHITI and NEW CALEDONIA could qualify for any WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP (of NATIONS) through their continents qualification systems because they live under other statute with very large autonomy. It isn't allowed for GUADELOUPE.

The autonomy of the Dutch Caribbean islands is not 'large' Jacques. The only island with 'status aparte' is Aruba. The southern Dutch Caribbeans, Curaçao and Bonaire, and the northern Dutch Caribbeans Saba, St. Eustatius and St. Maarten are under Dutch governmental control and the inhabitants have Dutch passports.

Maybe the draught players in Guadeloupe should propose that every year the championship of France is to be held in Guadeloupe. You think French draught players will take that and the travelcosts for granted?

It really is strange and not fair that Guadeloupian Draught Association and its players pay contribution to PADCF, the American part of FMJD, and that the only right they have, besides paying the contribution, is to play in the Pan-American championship and that they cannot qualify for the world championship. An excellent way to disencourage draughts activities in Guadeloupe!

I asked Pieter Hildering, executive vice-president of the FMJD, what his opinion is, and Pieter agreed that at first sight there seems to be not so much difference between Guadeloupe and -for example- Curaçao. Pieter Hildering is informing himself about this matter. Let's wait what FMJD Board will decide.

Jacques PERMAL · Post by **Jacques PERMAL** » Sat Jul 16, 2005 07:58

MARIE-JOSE PEREC was born in GUADELOUPE. She usually used french qualification system in order to contest in NATIONS CONTESTS (WC, OG...).

FRENCH CHAMPIONSHIP of DRAUGHTS was scheduled in GUADELOUPE in 1990. But in SEPTEMBER 1989, HURRICANE HUGO destroyed GUADELOUPE !! So it has been played in mainland FRANCE.

Hanco Elenbaas · Post by **Hanco Elenbaas** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 15:37

Fabrice MAGGIORE wrote:Lettre ouverte ÃƒÂ la FMJD

La Fédération Mondiale de JEU DE DAMES a décidé d'ouvrir le champ ÃƒÂ un plus large éventail de nations représentatives pour le Championnat du Monde 2005.

Dans les divers post mis sur ce forum, Mme BUBBI a précisé que chaque nation autorisée ÃƒÂ partiper, serait celle qui se serait acquittée de sa cotisation annuelle.

Dans un souci de clarification, concernant le cas de la Guadeloupe affiliée ÃƒÂ la PADCF, la guadeloupe a toujours payé son affiliation par l'intermédiaire de ses joueurs ( FORBIN et MAGGIORE ) lors des différents panaméricains ( GRENADE, HAITI et CANADA).

Jusqu'ÃƒÂ présent, la Guadeloupe n'était pas considérée comme une nation ÃƒÂ part entière, mais vu son extratéritorialité et la position affichée par la FMJD au regard des échanges avec Mr ALIAS et les posts émis par Madame BUBBI sur ce forum, il semble que la FMJD ait revu sa position en considérant la Guadeloupe comme une nation ÃƒÂ part entière.

Partant de ces deux considérations , rien ne s'oppose aujourd'hui ÃƒÂ ce que le représentant de la guadeloupe qui remplit les conditions de qualification au regard du PANAM d'HAITI 2004 soit présent aux PAYS-BAS fin 2005.

Malgré des échanges avec le président de la PANAM et un mail adressée ÃƒÂ Madame BUBBI, la demande officielle de la Guadeloupe pour que son réprésentant puisse participer au championnat du monde est restée lettre morte.

Il est regrettable qu'il faille exposer ces opinions et réitérer cette demande par la voie du Forum de la FMJD.

Peut-ÃƒÂªtre aujourdh'ui, la FMJD va -t-elle daigner répondre officiellement et avoir une position claire, nette et surtout sincère sans tourner en rond en précisant soit la non-reconnaissance, soit le non paiement, soit les deux ÃƒÂ la fois.

Amitiès

Letter open to the FMJD

The World Draughts Federation decided to open the field with a broader range of nations representative for the Championship of the World 2005.

In various the post put on this forum, Mrs. BUBBI specified that each authorized nation with partiper, would be that which would have discharged its annual contribution.

In a preoccupation with a clarification, concerning the case of the Guadeloupe affiliated to the PADCF, the Guadeloupe always paid its affiliation via its players (FORBIN and MAGGIORE) at the time of the different Pan-American ones (GRENADE, HAITI and CANADA).

Until now, the Guadeloupe was not regarded as a nation with whole share, but considering its extrateritoriality and the position posted by the FMJD taking into consideration exchange with Mr. ALIAS and the posts emitted by Mrs BUBBI on this forum, it seems that the FMJD re-examined its position by regarding the Guadeloupe as a nation with whole share.

On the basis of these two considerations, nothing is opposed today so that the representative of the Guadeloupe which meets the conditions of qualification taking into consideration PANAM of HAITI 2004 is present at the NETHERLANDS at the end of 2005.

In spite of exchanges with the president of the PANAM and an e-mail addressed to Mrs BUBBI, the official request of the Guadeloupe so that its representative can take part in the championship of the world remained dead letter.

It is regrettable that it is necessary to expose these opinions and to reiterate this request by the way of the Forum of the FMJD.

Perhaps today, the FMJD it will condescend to answer officially and to have a clear, clear and especially sincere position without turning in round by specifying either the not-recognition, or nonthe payment, or both at the same time.

Friendships

Pieter Hildering wrote today that players from Guadeloupe have to qualify via France, because Guadeloupe is not a member from FMJD, unlike Curaçao. At the moment FMJD Board unfortunately cannot change anything.
Pieter Hildering says that for Guadeloupe it might possibly be advisable to request the same status in FMJD as Curaçao has, to make sure that in future this kind of problems can be avoided.

Raoul Alias · Post by **Raoul Alias** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 21:10

Hello Jacques, Hanco
I have read the letter of Maggiore and I want to react on it. not on the complete letter because there are many things that Maggiore, the Guadeloupean Draghts Federation and me has discussed about in the past many times. ONE thing I want to have a clearification about. I want to know when and to who the Guadeloupean Federation, Maggiorre or Forbin has paid any contribution fee to the FMJD or the PADCF.
As far as I know the Guadeloupean players , the same as Barbados, Antigua, and St. Vincent up to now has only paid inscription fees for their players to play in the American championship or tournaments and without any rights of qualification to the FMJD-championships. The point ( for us it is not a problem) has to be solved between Guadeloupe and the French Sports Ministeries (and then after with the FMJD).
greetings, Raoul.

Jacques PERMAL · Post by **Jacques PERMAL** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 22:04

Hello RAOUL !

French authorities allows guadeloupeans sportwomen and sportmen to participate in PANAMERICAN contests if they have paid contribution.

But GUADELOUPEANS can't hope to participate in any world championship (teams or individuals) without having qualified through the french qualification system.

In French terminology, GUADELOUPE, GUYANA (french), MARTINIQUE and REUNION (Indian Ocean) are DOM. DOM means DEPARTEMENTS D'OUTRE MER or FRENCH OVERSEAS DEPARTMENTS in english.
According to FRENCH LAWS, DOM has not a large autonomy. DOM are integral part of FRANCE.

TAHITI, NEW-CALEDONIA, SAINT-PIERRE&MIQUELON, WALLIS&FUTUNA are TOM according to french terminology.
TOM stands for TERRITOIRE D'OUTRE-MER or FRENCH OVERSEAS TERRITORIES.
All the TOM have large autonomy : TAHITI, NEW-CALEDONIA, WALLIS&FUTUNA have their own money (FRANC PACIFIQUE).
Sportwomen and men could participate in WC if they want. For instance, TAHITI usually plays qualification for WORLD CUP of SOCCER in PACIFIC AREA.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 22:48

Jacques PERMAL wrote:Hello RAOUL !

French authorities allows guadeloupeans sportwomen and sportmen to participate in PANAMERICAN contests if they have paid contribution.

But GUADELOUPEANS can't hope to participate in any world championship (teams or individuals) without having qualified through the french qualification system.

In French terminology, GUADELOUPE, GUYANA (french), MARTINIQUE and REUNION (Indian Ocean) are DOM. DOM means DEPARTEMENTS D'OUTRE MER or OVERSEAS FRENCH DEPARTMENTS in english.
According to FRENCH LAWS, DOM has not a large autonomy. DOM are integral part of FRANCE.

TAHITI, NEW-CALEDONIA, SAINT-PIERRE&MIQUELON, WALLIS&FUTUNA are TOM according to french terminology.
TOM stands for TERRITOIRE D'OUTRE-MER or OVERSEAS FRENCH TERRITORIES.
All the TOM have large autonomy : TAHITI, NEW-CALEDONIA, WALLIS&FUTUNA have their own money (FRANC PACIFIQUE).
Sportwomen and men could participate in WC if they want. For instance, TAHITI usually plays qualification for WORLD CUP of SOCCER in PACIFIC AREA.

Neo-colonialism.
It seems to be time for a change, a new French revolution! Maybe Forbin and Maggiore can be the new leaders.

Hanco Elenbaas · Post by **Hanco Elenbaas** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 22:50

Neo-colonialism.
It seems to be time for a change, a new French revolution! Maybe Forbin and Maggiore can be the new leaders.

Don't you think so Jacques? In The Netherlands they are much more friendly towards the inhabitants of the former colonies, the overseas territories.
Pieter Hildering regretted he couldn't do anything for Maggiore and he advised Guadeloupe Draughts Association to ask for the FMJD-membership and the same status as Curaçao.
Is it jealousy that holds back France and its sportsminister to give Guadeloupe the same rights as the Dutch gave to Curaçao, or what else is the real motive? Bureaucracy maybe?

Jacques PERMAL · Post by **Jacques PERMAL** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 23:42

About the statutes of DOM :

GUADELOUPE has been determined DOM in 1946 with approval of guadeloupeans elected politicians.

Only a referendum could only change that. But do people want this referendum ? I don't think so .

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 00:12

Final Standing 12th Panam Haiti 2004
Code: Select all
1 Anthony Alexandre      11 7 - 3 - 1 17  

2 Louiceus Shang Wong    11 5 - 6 - 0 16  

3 Ricardo Pierre         11 5 - 3 - 3 13  

4 Alix Louis             11 4 - 5 - 2 13  

5 Fabrice Maggiore       11 3 - 7 - 1 13 

6 Lelio Marcos MI        11 3 - 6 - 2 12  

7 Carlos Lorevil         11 4 - 3 - 4 11  

8 Dickson Maughn MF      11 2 - 6 - 3 10  

9 Lafontant Cherenfant   11 3 - 4 - 4 10  

10 Louis Gilles          11 1 - 7 - 3  9  

11 Paulvin Simon         11 1 - 3 - 7  5  

12 Eugene Britt          11 0 - 3 - 8  3 
Website 13th Panam in Montreal, http://www.fqjr.qc.ca/dames/100/panam_2005.html#partic
which started at July 12th, says:

NOTE: The following players qualified for the 2005 World Championships during the Panam held in Cap HaÃƒÂ¯tien in 2004:
Haiti: Anthony Alexandre and Shang Wong Louiceus
Brazil: Lelio Marcos
Curaçao: Carlos Lorevil
Trinidad-Tobago: Dickson Maughn

The same qualifying process will be used during the 2005 Panam where the 5 best players (with a maximum of 2 per Country) will be qualified for the 2006-2007 World Championships.

So Fabrice Maggiore ended 5th (the first four were from Haiti) and didn't qualify, while the numbers 6, 7 and 8 will go to Amsterdam.

Fabrice Maggiore in Cap-HaÃƒÂ¯tien</center>

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