Unsolvable position

Discussion about development of draughts in the time of computer and Internet.
Krzysztof Grzelak
Posts: 1307
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 17:16
Real name: Krzysztof Grzelak

Re: Unsolvable position

Post by Krzysztof Grzelak » Wed Aug 03, 2022 18:41

Sidiki wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 17:45
Very nice and what happened without 8 endgame database ?

For information, Idames it's under migration to Java toward C++ and you will have news about it.

The author he's implementing dxp protocol to play thousands of games.

Also the "Any" = "None" has been fixed, i will post the new video with 0 EGDB and 1 minute +10 secondes time

Friendly, Sidiki.
How do you get so much information about this engine.

Sidiki
Posts: 313
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 16:28
Real name: Coulibaly Sidiki

Re: Unsolvable position

Post by Sidiki » Wed Aug 03, 2022 23:32

Krzysztof Grzelak wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 18:41
Sidiki wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 17:45
Very nice and what happened without 8 endgame database ?

For information, Idames it's under migration to Java toward C++ and you will have news about it.

The author he's implementing dxp protocol to play thousands of games.

Also the "Any" = "None" has been fixed, i will post the new video with 0 EGDB and 1 minute +10 secondes time

Friendly, Sidiki.
How do you get so much information about this engine.
I'm in touch with the author.

This's the update video no EGDB, no opening book.

https://pixeldrain.com/u/H6JwY6GR

It's just the Android version, so slower version due to running environment.
The engine will be certainly finish soon. Once again, this's itsn't a kind of war or another thing.

We are a community, and this's just to annonce a new comer.

We hope that the author will be add to our forum to have to exchange with everyone here.

This will be great.

Friendly, Sidiki

clp
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 14:28
Real name: Kees Pippel
Location: IJmuiden

Re: Unsolvable position

Post by clp » Thu Aug 04, 2022 16:08

Joost Buijs wrote:
Sun Jul 31, 2022 17:00
Solving problems needs a totally different approach, you'll see the same with chess, perfect mate solvers unable to play a strong game, and vice versa.

When I disable futility pruning in Ares, it finds the solution in a fraction of a second at 17 ply, but without pruning it starts to play weaker in normal games and that is something you don't want. It is possible to prune more selective, e.g. prune this and not that, usually this makes the program play weaker too.

Joost
Is it possible to play in dual mode? A few seconds to find a combination and then the usual procedure?

clp
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 14:28
Real name: Kees Pippel
Location: IJmuiden

Re: Unsolvable position - Scan IOS

Post by clp » Thu Aug 04, 2022 16:19

On my iPhone 8, Scan finds 37-31 in seconds with a rating of 80. After the combination, Scan decides almost immediately to 2-0.

Joost Buijs
Posts: 460
Joined: Wed May 04, 2016 11:45
Real name: Joost Buijs

Re: Unsolvable position

Post by Joost Buijs » Thu Aug 04, 2022 17:28

clp wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 16:08
Joost Buijs wrote:
Sun Jul 31, 2022 17:00
Solving problems needs a totally different approach, you'll see the same with chess, perfect mate solvers unable to play a strong game, and vice versa.

When I disable futility pruning in Ares, it finds the solution in a fraction of a second at 17 ply, but without pruning it starts to play weaker in normal games and that is something you don't want. It is possible to prune more selective, e.g. prune this and not that, usually this makes the program play weaker too.
Is it possible to play in dual mode? A few seconds to find a combination and then the usual procedure?
Yes, it is possible to use 2 different search procedures, one optimized for tactics and another one optimized for strategy. Although it would be nicer to make the pruning algorithm so smart that it understands which patterns are safe to prune and which are not. Maybe a small neural net could help in making these decisions.

Sidiki
Posts: 313
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 16:28
Real name: Coulibaly Sidiki

Re: Unsolvable position

Post by Sidiki » Thu Aug 04, 2022 21:48

clp wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 16:08
Joost Buijs wrote:
Sun Jul 31, 2022 17:00
Solving problems needs a totally different approach, you'll see the same with chess, perfect mate solvers unable to play a strong game, and vice versa.

When I disable futility pruning in Ares, it finds the solution in a fraction of a second at 17 ply, but without pruning it starts to play weaker in normal games and that is something you don't want. It is possible to prune more selective, e.g. prune this and not that, usually this makes the program play weaker too.

Joost
Is it possible to play in dual mode? A few seconds to find a combination and then the usual procedure?
Yes, this's possible.

clp
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2018 14:28
Real name: Kees Pippel
Location: IJmuiden

Re: Unsolvable position by Andreas Kuyken

Post by clp » Fri Aug 05, 2022 18:54

Not easy
impossible-kuyken-v2.jpg
impossible-kuyken-v2.jpg (20.07 KiB) Viewed 2502 times

Joost Buijs
Posts: 460
Joined: Wed May 04, 2016 11:45
Real name: Joost Buijs

Re: Unsolvable position by Andreas Kuyken

Post by Joost Buijs » Sat Aug 06, 2022 12:16

clp wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 18:54
Not easy

impossible-kuyken-v2.jpg
Using 32 threads (with futility pruning disabled) Ares finds (after 280 seconds) the continuation: 25-20 14x25 50-44

My guess is that when the search is optimized for these type of positions the solution could be found much quicker, the drawback is that it will hurt normal game play.

pontel
Posts: 41
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2021 21:48
Real name: João Anselmo Pontel

Re: Unsolvable position

Post by pontel » Thu Sep 01, 2022 00:28

Sidiki wrote:
Fri Jul 29, 2022 07:25
Hi Programmers

Hello Sidiki,

Kingsrow can find the solution by giving him the necessary search time.



unsolvable.PNG


Why this position is't so difficult to solve by the bests knowed engines without endgames database?

Even with a long time of search.

Friendly,

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