Unofficial World Championship Of Computer Programs In International Draughts 2022

Discussion about development of draughts in the time of computer and Internet.
Krzysztof Grzelak
Posts: 1307
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 17:16
Real name: Krzysztof Grzelak

Re: Unofficial World Championship Of Computer Programs In International Draughts 2022

Post by Krzysztof Grzelak » Wed Sep 14, 2022 07:21

Joost Buijs wrote:
Wed Sep 14, 2022 07:05
So you are using a DGT electronic draughts board, I didn't know that something like this exists. In the past I had a DGT electronic chess board, I assume the capabilities of the draughts board are about the same.
Yes. I have chess and checkers. Without this board, there would be no tournament.

Krzysztof

Krzysztof Grzelak
Posts: 1307
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 17:16
Real name: Krzysztof Grzelak

Re: Unofficial World Championship Of Computer Programs In International Draughts 2022

Post by Krzysztof Grzelak » Wed Sep 14, 2022 10:44

In Kingsrow - Td King, I entered the wrong result by mistake. Please refresh the page - and the result will be correct.

Ed Gilbert
Posts: 854
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 14:53
Real name: Ed Gilbert
Location: Morristown, NJ USA
Contact:

Re: Unofficial World Championship Of Computer Programs In International Draughts 2022

Post by Ed Gilbert » Thu Sep 15, 2022 13:50

Krzysztof, I noticed that some of the games are longer than 85 moves. For examples, round 23 flits vs td king is 92 moves, and round 27 edeon sport vs damage is 93 moves. Do you reconfigure the engines' time controls when happens? If you do nothing, then anything past 85 moves is undefined behavior. Kingsrow will try to use all of its time for 85 moves, so it may have no time left after that. I don't remember what it does if you ask it to make an 86th move and there is zero time on its clock. Probably every engine handles this differently because it is unspecified. I think you need to limit all games to 85 moves and then call the game result based on the final position.

BertTuyt
Posts: 1573
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 19:42

Re: Unofficial World Championship Of Computer Programs In International Draughts 2022

Post by BertTuyt » Thu Sep 15, 2022 13:57

I tend to agree with Ed.
In the game Edeon - Damage, there was a 1 - 4 endgame, where Damage did got 4 kings in the end.
The game took 92 moves.
In this case Damage did not make any mistakes, but I also need to check my code what happens if the number of moves is beyond the set value.

Anyway compliments for the tournament, it is fun watching it.
May the best engine win, and this year it wont be Damage :D

Bert

Krzysztof Grzelak
Posts: 1307
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 17:16
Real name: Krzysztof Grzelak

Re: Unofficial World Championship Of Computer Programs In International Draughts 2022

Post by Krzysztof Grzelak » Thu Sep 15, 2022 19:21

Ed Gilbert wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 13:50
Krzysztof, I noticed that some of the games are longer than 85 moves. For examples, round 23 flits vs td king is 92 moves, and round 27 edeon sport vs damage is 93 moves. Do you reconfigure the engines' time controls when happens? If you do nothing, then anything past 85 moves is undefined behavior. Kingsrow will try to use all of its time for 85 moves, so it may have no time left after that. I don't remember what it does if you ask it to make an 86th move and there is zero time on its clock. Probably every engine handles this differently because it is unspecified. I think you need to limit all games to 85 moves and then call the game result based on the final position.
All games are set to 85 moves. The fact that I continue to play is only to check whether the database can be trusted with a given program.

Joost Buijs
Posts: 460
Joined: Wed May 04, 2016 11:45
Real name: Joost Buijs

Re: Unofficial World Championship Of Computer Programs In International Draughts 2022

Post by Joost Buijs » Fri Sep 16, 2022 07:15

IMO it is a bit weird to set a fixed limit on the number of moves with a game like international draughts, with othello/reversi you can do this because a game will never last longer than 30 moves for each player. For draughts it would be better to say something like 85 moves in 10 minutes plus 1 minute for all remaining moves.

When both programs agree on the outcome of the game from their database, you may want stop the game to save time, but it is better to play the game till the end because it happens that programs with a WDL database don't know how to make progress in a won position.

Krzysztof Grzelak
Posts: 1307
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 17:16
Real name: Krzysztof Grzelak

Re: Unofficial World Championship Of Computer Programs In International Draughts 2022

Post by Krzysztof Grzelak » Fri Sep 16, 2022 07:21

Joost Buijs wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 07:15
IMO it is a bit weird to set a fixed limit on the number of moves with a game like international draughts, with othello/reversi you can do this because a game will never last longer than 30 moves for each player. It would be better to say something like 85 moves in 10 minutes plus 1 minute for all remaining moves.

When both programs agree on the outcome of the game from their database, you may want stop the game to save time, but it is better to play the game till the end because it happens that programs with a WDL database don't know how to make progress in a won position.
I don't think that's a good solution. Most programs will have a problem setting the time 10 minutes + 1 minute.

Joost Buijs
Posts: 460
Joined: Wed May 04, 2016 11:45
Real name: Joost Buijs

Re: Unofficial World Championship Of Computer Programs In International Draughts 2022

Post by Joost Buijs » Fri Sep 16, 2022 07:46

Krzysztof Grzelak wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 07:21
Joost Buijs wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 07:15
IMO it is a bit weird to set a fixed limit on the number of moves with a game like international draughts, with othello/reversi you can do this because a game will never last longer than 30 moves for each player. It would be better to say something like 85 moves in 10 minutes plus 1 minute for all remaining moves.

When both programs agree on the outcome of the game from their database, you may want stop the game to save time, but it is better to play the game till the end because it happens that programs with a WDL database don't know how to make progress in a won position.
I don't think that's a good solution. Most programs will have a problem setting the time 10 minutes + 1 minute.
This solution would be fine, that it is impossible in practice is something that could be solved. I assume most programs are already keeping a time buffer with some spare time internally because this is a normal thing to do.

Ed Gilbert
Posts: 854
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 14:53
Real name: Ed Gilbert
Location: Morristown, NJ USA
Contact:

Re: Unofficial World Championship Of Computer Programs In International Draughts 2022

Post by Ed Gilbert » Fri Sep 16, 2022 13:34

Krzysztof Grzelak wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 19:21
All games are set to 85 moves. The fact that I continue to play is only to check whether the database can be trusted with a given program.
The point is that anything that happens after 85 moves is unspecified behavior and should be excluded from the tournament. If a game is a draw after 85 moves and then a program makes a losing move on the 86th move, the game should still be declared a draw.

Krzysztof Grzelak
Posts: 1307
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 17:16
Real name: Krzysztof Grzelak

Re: Unofficial World Championship Of Computer Programs In International Draughts 2022

Post by Krzysztof Grzelak » Fri Sep 16, 2022 13:42

Ed Gilbert wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 13:34
The point is that anything that happens after 85 moves is unspecified behavior and should be excluded from the tournament. If a game is a draw after 85 moves and then a program makes a losing move on the 86th move, the game should still be declared a draw.
Now what do I do with all of this?

Ed Gilbert
Posts: 854
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 14:53
Real name: Ed Gilbert
Location: Morristown, NJ USA
Contact:

Re: Unofficial World Championship Of Computer Programs In International Draughts 2022

Post by Ed Gilbert » Fri Sep 16, 2022 13:47

Krzysztof Grzelak wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 13:42
Now what do I do with all of this?
You probably don't need to do anything to games already played because none of the outcomes changed after 85 moves.

Stop all future games at 85 moves maximum.

pontel
Posts: 41
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2021 21:48
Real name: João Anselmo Pontel

Re: Unofficial World Championship Of Computer Programs In International Draughts 2022

Post by pontel » Fri Sep 16, 2022 18:55

Ed Gilbert wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 13:47
Krzysztof Grzelak wrote:
Fri Sep 16, 2022 13:42
Now what do I do with all of this?
You probably don't need to do anything to games already played because none of the outcomes changed after 85 moves.

Stop all future games at 85 moves maximum.
This is an important issue, some games can take more than 90 moves to end in victory. There is a specific position that occurred in a game after the move number 75, where black had 1 pawn and 4 kings, while white had 1 pawn and 1 king. If placed this position played with the best moves of both colors, it still takes 23 more moves to finish.

That's why whenever I play games in DXP, I set the time as a function of 99 moves, so a result is almost never indeterminate.

Krzysztof Grzelak
Posts: 1307
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 17:16
Real name: Krzysztof Grzelak

Re: Unofficial World Championship Of Computer Programs In International Draughts 2022

Post by Krzysztof Grzelak » Sun Sep 18, 2022 20:55

Tournament " The Unofficial World Championship Of Computer Programs In International Draughts 2022 " ended with victory of the program Ares by Joost Buijs, second and third place was taken Scan by Fabien Letouzey and Kingsrow by Edgar Gilbert. Congratulations to Joost Buijs,Fabien Letouzey and Edgar Gilbert. Many thanks to the other participants in the tournament.

For more information about the tournament, please visit the website https://www.uwccpi2022.draughtsprograms.eu/

BertTuyt
Posts: 1573
Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2004 19:42

Re: Unofficial World Championship Of Computer Programs In International Draughts 2022

Post by BertTuyt » Mon Sep 19, 2022 00:15

Congratulations to Joost with his program Ares.
Also congratulations for all programs participating, may the result (whatever this was) give you a boost to come back next year better and stronger.

And last but not least thanks to Krzysztof for organizing this tournament, and for all the energy and passion he has, as it is not without to operate the programs for more then weeks continuously around 10 hours a day.

Bert

Sidiki
Posts: 314
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 16:28
Real name: Coulibaly Sidiki

Re: Unofficial World Championship Of Computer Programs In International Draughts 2022

Post by Sidiki » Mon Sep 19, 2022 02:34

Hi all,

Congratulations Joost,

Without forget Fabien, Ed, Bert and the others.
This was a great and exciting tournament.
This show that our draughts family is growing year after year, because we are here together since a long time.

I also profit for the opportunity to announce that you will not get time to rest, because propably to 15th to 18th October, i plan to organize the International Draughts Computers Blitzs 2022.

5 minutes + 5 will be the time.

The complete list of engines will be communicated to you before the 5th.

Already you will find :

1.Ares
2.Aurora Borealis
3. Damage NNUE
4.Dragon
5.Edeon Sport
6.Flits
7.Horizon
8.Kingsrow
9. Maximus 2.03 (Android ) on a 12 Ram Android
10. Mobydam
11.Scan
12.Truus

I don't precised the version because there's probably some update, also some programmers will send they engines, without forget some news comers.


Have all a nice day, and God keep us together for again long long and long years again.

I love you all.

Friendly, Sidiki.

Post Reply