Copyrights for draughts database

[Klaas Bor]

Who do you think have entered the games in the Truus database? Do you think Stef Keetman himself? Or was it done by a group of nice dwarfs?

For years, the Truus program was for sale at the KDNB webshop. If you haven't sued Keetman or the KNDB for actually breaking your copyright, why are you making such a noise at the mere suggestion of another such precedent now?

Because times are changing and persons are changing. I am not the same person as fifteen years ago. At that time I did not stand up for my rights. But this time I do.

[BertTuyt]

Apparently someone has changed the titel of the topic, which is okish.

I hope you can understand that makes me upset because the next step probably will be the publishing of the complete Mega Database for free

I have no intention of copying the (complete) Mega Database.

Your point is that I am defending the indefensible

Yes I did, and basically you agree with me, as you stated "I know the subscription model of Turbo Dambase does not last long. If it is not needed anymore"

I would embrace a more active cooperation between Piet and you, and for example combine efforts in collecting the data. You could create a cease fire, where you at least agree that from the year X onwards it is allowed to generate overviews/output .pdn of the whole year, as the work being done is split between persons,and things get fuzzy...

I agree with Rein and therefore I will say it again, TurboDambase is a great product !! I like it, and if it wasn't in my collection I would buy it tomorrow.
But it is getting outdated also. It lacks 64bits support, so the program does not benefit from the huge memories and multiple cores. The Engine used is Flits, which is also no longer supported and upgraded by Adri Vermeulen.
More complex search queries are lacking.

My suggestion to you, open the interfaces, the database format, make an open connection to an engine. Add more complex search queries.
I'm working on all of this, just as my hobby, so just ask and I will provide you a 7P endgame database (for free).
You dont need to reinvent the wheel.
As Rein said, and I recognize all your work, find ways of adding value in different ways.
From a data entry point of view the future is into open collaboration.

So your defense line are in the future not the newer games, as all have free access to that, nor a defense line of games you had to feed in, in the hard and tie consuming way.
The future is a far better Turbodambase which everyone want to buy!
Take a look at the Damage GUI, take a look at other initiates, and think how we all can support you !!
You are not alone like Remi.

Our computer Draughts community is small, and we will meet again soon.
So herewith I invite you for a drink on my costs at my place, where maybe with other people we can find out creative ways for an offer no-one can refuse...

Bert

[BertTuyt]

Klaas, just another remark.

I also posted this question a long time ago to Adri.
I could for example update Flits (if Adri does not have time), and
rebuilt it towards 64bit, parallel search and 7P Databases.
I could (and will) do it for free.

And you might use it in the way you want .
As was mentioned in this forum, during the most recent tournament in Poland, Horizon became 3th before Truus and Flits.
And Horizon is basically the Damage search with the Feike Boomstra Horizon evaluation function.
I believe that Flits with modern search techniques would be stronger.

That could be a reason for people to upgrade TurboDambase a far better engine with 7p Databases.

Just a thought....,and there might be many more

Bert

[Walter]

There is obviously no doubt that a lot of effort has been put into building the database of TurboDambase. I think that there can also not be a lot of doubt that a copyright exists on the database. I don't think that arguments that games are owned by the players and hence there cannot be a copyright on the database work well. A database of phone numbers can also be copyrighted, even though each person could claim to own his number. I think that also sufficient new additions have been made to the database each year to renew the 15 years expiration period.

All this, however, does not mean that there is a problem with distributing the database of Toernooibase freely. There seems to have been no direct transfer of data from TurboDambase to Toernooibase. There are other sources from which games could have been taken. There are games that were first entered in Toernooibase, then later in TurboDambase. Making counterclaims possible. Even if the claim that 50% somehow directly came from the TurboDambase is correct, then that would be about 60,000 games out of a 460,000 games database. Is that a substantial part as the law requires?

Personally, I don't think that Piet and Bert are doing anything wrong or questionable. I do also understand the frustration of Klaas that the return on his investment has not been what he expected. I also agree with Klaas that not everything has to be free in the draughts world, even though I love the tools made freely available by Piet, Bert and Rein!

I think that the only way to protect and make money out of a database like the MegaDatabase in this day and age is to only make it available online and to use a freemium model.

Toernooibase is clearly far from complete compared to the MegaDatabase. Maybe the MegaDatabase can be integrated in Toernooibase as part of a premium paid service? Combined with advanced new search capabilities based on Bert's latest efforts, combined with a modern engine, combined with a 7 piece database etc. this could be an attractive enough offer to get people to pay for a subscription. As also Klaas seems to realise that currently the value of TurboDambase is diminishing over time making the current subscription unattractive, he must be interested in exploring new value adding feature (especially if they are offered for free!).

In any event, I think that a freemium model for Toernooibase is an option worth considering regardless of the MegaDatabase issue. The 'Digital Agenda' for Toernooibase as discussed elsewhere on this forum resulted in a long list of desired features. Whether all these features can be developed in a reasonable amount of time by volunteers and then hosted for free on increasingly powerful servers with improved availability is questionable.

Walter

[Piet Bouma]

I did not wanted to post anything about this subject, but the discussion continues. And I want to say something from my side.

If have offered Klaas on 6-4-2012 by mail to put about 37500 games (games before 1-1-2004, which, although the source(s) is/are in my opinion not from the MegaDatabase(!), but probably, they are originally are from the MegaDatabase) on “black” in Toernooibase. That is not more then 50% of the games in Toernooibase, but a third.
Also an amount of games would be then on “black” which are not from Turbodambase…….(sorry users of Toernooibase).

I have also asked Klaas if he is willing to put the games he has uploaded from Toernooibase to Turbodambase (from 2008 till 6-4-2012) on “black”. (Also Toernooibase, has the same rights of a database, as Klaas explains, although I don’t use copyright, because I believe, only players have copyright).
I have also explained to Klaas that some 7500 games a year I think is uploaded from Turbodambase to Toernooibase by all users. That means that in that tempo it will take more then 25 years (I will be dead I suppose in that time) that the whole MegaDatabase would be in Toernooibase.
In this mail conversion ( I have offered to come together and discuss the situation) also Marcel Kosters of KNDB was included.
The day after Klaas mails that he stoppes with Turbodambase.
Later in 2012 Klaas continues with Turbodambase.

Since then there has not been any contact on this subject.

But……, before this discussion on the Forum started, Maarten van Leenen (promotor as for example Heerhugowaard Open), contacted me on 14-1-2014 (because of the digital Agenda of Toernooibase on another topic) to come together, to discuss if we (It’ers) can’t collaborate with each other, to come to a concept that will be stronger then all our efforts apart.
I have agreed, and a provisonal appointment is made on 15 february at the last round of semi-finals Dutch championship in Utrecht. Maarten will also invite (or has invited…. )Klaas and Jasper Lemmen at this appointment. I have invited Geb Kos (he does a lot with websites etc.) to this meeting. I have suggested to Maarten also to invite Wieger Wesselink and Maurits Meijer.

I think at that appointment we can discuss this problems of databases, but more how can we (all passionated lovers of draughts) make a innovative concept in the future for all benefit of Draughts World. I hope Klaas accepts this appointment, so we can talk face to face about this problems but also how we can collaborate in the future.

This is really the last posting from me on this subject.

[Wieger Wesselink]

I can understand the position of Klaas Bor, since he has put a tremendous effort in creating the database. So hopefully an acceptable solution will be found that protects the effort that was put into this by him and his family.

For the future I think that the model of entering games by only a few persons is no longer viable. It should become a collaborative effort, and Toernooibase facilitates that very well. I'm sure that many more people can be involved in this project. For example I am willing to enter my own games. Until recently I never bothered to do that, mainly because nobody asked. And perhaps the KNDB and the FMJD can stimulate clubs and tournaments to supply the games.

Still I believe that TurboDambase has a future. There is of course added value if someone takes care of distributing the games, of making corrections, taking care of proper spelling of names etc. Also the database can be completed with games from tournaments in the past. For example I still have lots of printed game notations from tournaments that are not in the database. Also game analysis could be added. So there are plenty of opportunities to make it worthwhile for people to subscribe to these services.

[BertTuyt]

Without restarting the discussion, but ...

On the side of the Draughts program Aurora Borealis you can find a International Draughts Database (year 2006, 260625 games) on the download page.
I downloaded the file, just curiosity.

After unpacking (as many other databases for other Draughts variants are included) there were 3 files related to International Draughts,
International2006.abd ( 22M), International2006.abm (131M) and International2006.abn (212K).

The International2006.abn file seems to be the player name file, and the first 2 entries are Verhaeren, A., and Gregoire,G .

Im not sure if in this case there is a lincence agreement, or another logical explanation.

Bert

[Klaas Bor]

The database of Aurora Borealis is, almost for sure, a shameless copy of the Mega Database in the period 2005/2006. When I look at the abn file the spelling of players and tournaments are exactly the same as in Mega Database. Also the number of games is about the same as Mega Database at that time. There is no licence agreement. I cannot tell 100 procent sure, because I did not buy the program. But when it as true, and I have little doubt about it, then mister Svirin is just a criminal, making money by stealing from others.

How shameless he his you can see on his website. Go to http://www.aurora.shashki.com, choose Info at the top, then scroll down until you see Javascript Examples, click it, and then at the left click on Woldouby. What do you see? A little analyse from the boek of Koeperman in the Dutch language! Looks very familiar. Since 2004 Turbo Dambase is shipped with this example to show users that they can also enter variants and texts. And mister Svirin even uses this example to make advertisement for his own program.

But what can I do about it? Go to sue mister Svirin? This costs a lot of money and it will be long struggle to fight against Russian bear. What would be the result? That he cannot make the database available at his website anymore. But he, and the users of his program, will find other ways to illegal spread the games. I have given up the Russian market already long time ago. There are only two Russian players having a subscription on the games of Turbo Dambase. And there are so many players there. Do they not have a computer? Do they not need a program and a database with actual games? All those grandmasters? I cannot believe it. More likely they use other programs, like Aurora Borealis, and get the games for free (PDN).

This copying of games happens everywhere, not only in Russia. In the best year ever, 220 people had subscription on the games of Turbo Dambase. In started in the beginning with about 50 subscribers, slowly growing over the years towards 200 with a peak at 220. Nowadays the number of subscribers is below 200 again. I think much more players use the games. It is hard to imagine that only so small number of players are interested in the games.

So, when I look back, there is only frustration. Just put too much effort in the database and too little in programming. The Turbo Dambase program is not developed last 10 years. There was no time. Besides normal job the free time was used to maintain the database and subscription. And then to see that the games are copied by Truus, by Aurora Borealis and into Toernooibase, please forgive me that I get upset and become little aggressive. Maybe, with telling the backgrounds about Turbo Dambase now, there will arise some more understanding and support from draughts world. Still my wish is to start programming again full time, as in the beginning years. Because there is so much work to do. But without reward this is impossible.

Klaas Bor

[A.Presman]

It is good that Klaas openly shows his frustration. More people will know his opinion and find out some things they didn’t know before.
Also probably it will be useful for himself to hear what others think about the current situation with TD.

To begin, we all know that the time has changed. And it requires most of businesses to switch to (sometimes completely) different business models.
Some industries with all their know-how completely disappeared or disappearing.
Some are totally different if you compare it with just 10 year ago.
Think about post, tourism, retail (almost any). And everything that has something to do with digitally distributable content (music, software, movies etc.)
Of course the one's who had good market position in the "good old time" aren't happy with it.
So some (like big music labels etc.) want to keep their old model and begin to struggle against the modern time on juridical ground.
And other (like Apple, Google and millions other) are just anticipating new possibilities.
And the sympathy of consumers is almost always on the side of the last one’s. While they are exactly same or even more commercial than their predecessors.
And also in this discussion is clearly to see that everybody is agree that Klaas and his family did a big job and deserve rewards.
And nevertheless almost none is agree that to maximize these rewarding we have to keep everything as is.
To survive in the modern time as a business (even as a very small one) everybody needs to be flexible and alert. Also Klaas ans Tourbodambase.
I remember our conversations. One was somewhere around 2006. Another in 2009.

Both times I suggested (just found and translating a piece of my mail)
1) Create commission structure to stimulate people and federations to promote and sell TD.
2) Sell the games on demand for a micro price.
3) Invite more people to contribute to TD (mainly the less known tournaments and games).

In 2006 I was fascinated with the idea of (internet) World Draughts Club which could also be a platform for searching and selling the games on demand (what currently men should call SaaS)
And what was your reaction, Klaas? Shortly - not positive.
Only In the last year you made some big (and very good) steps towards internet. But maybe it was already a bit too late.

Svirin and Aurora.
The main market of Aurora is not “100” but “64” game. Which is certainly bigger than the “100” market. And Svirin made his choice in favor of 64.
I also checked my correspondence with Svirin from the time he was busy with creation of Aurora.
I asked him about the origin of "100" database. His answer was that he received the database as a gift from one (not that known) player who maintains it for years.
I won’t mention the name (not Russian and not Dutch). I also can guess that it was ever based on one of older Megabases but meanwhile I believe Svirin didn’t copy it self.

So, when I look back, there is only frustration. Just put too much effort in the database and too little in programming. The Turbo Dambase program is not developed last 10 years. There was no time.

That is just pity. And maybe a mistake. Because for instance Svirin does develop Aurora. And in some features is already beyond TD.

Frustration.
I really find it pity that Klaas doesn’t earn with his product enough to be happy and to have a lot of time to develop it further. But sincerely I have more compassion for (former) world champions and grandmasters living in or on the edge of poverty.
While it has the same reason. Our product “draughts” is at the moment used by too little people.

And only efforts directed to promotion of the game can lead to growing of the market and to decent rewards for top players as well as for Klaas Bor and other draughts programmers, writers, trainers etc.

Paradox or not, but just the people like Piet, Bert and others, open minded and doing today things “for free” actually contributing to the grow of draughts market.
What on the long term can bring profit to all people who would like (and have right) to be rewarded.

[Sim0n]

The database of Turbo Dambase has a long history of 25 years. The database has now 460 thousand games. It took a tremendous effort to build this database and it’s a huge investment. The Mega Database is protected by copyrights. I give no permission to take large parts of this database to make it freely available in any form. Please read this article (http://www.ivir.nl/wetten/nl/databankenwet.html) for the law which protects the producers of databases.

Personally I think it's bad for the game of draughts to keep game libraries under a non-public license. Unlike games like chess or go it's difficult to find decent PDN-collections. There are small ones, but large databases for engine tuning are almost impossible to find. Ok, you could buy turbo dambase, but I don't want to buy a piece of software that has no use to me (I don't have windows) just to get access to a database that should be public in the first place.
Mr. Bor mentions that the database is protected by copyrights and keeps refering to the 'databankenwet'. First of all I don't think it is protected by copyrights. The games are a simple representation of the draughts moves. If any other person would type in the game in PDN the result would be almost exactly the same. If there is any copyright on these games, it would lie with the players who played the game in the first place. (Perhaps turbo dambase should pay a licence fee to all draughts players for using their games. )
The 'databankenwet' has nothing to do with copyrights on the content, but protects the collection of (not necesarilly original) material. However, I doubt whether this law applies to the turbo dambase. First of all there's the 15-year time limit. Also the protection doesn't apply anymore once the owner sells a copy of the database. As far as I understand the turbo dambase games are sold on a dvd. Mr. Bor seems to think the 15-year time limit doesn't apply due to article 6 of the law, but I doubt whether that's true. The 15-year limit starts the moment the database is made public, which is more than 15 years ago. This timeframe gets renewed only when there's a substantial addition to the database. New games are added in relatively small numbers compared to the size of the database, so in court this might not be substantial enough for renewal of the database law.
Secondly, for the database law to apply, the database should consist of a 'substantial amount' of work. Compared to playing the games, entering them into a database might not be substantial. Also mr. Bor states that he didn't do all the entering himself. In particular, since the William Hill case it might be difficult to hide behind this law. Looking at the website of turbo dambase, it seems that the main product is not the game database, but the database software and draughts engine. Similar to the William Hill case, the game database seems to be a by-product of the main product, which is the database software.
Finally, the database law isn't a global law. If the database would be protected under this law, it's probably still legal for someone in say Russia to put a free copy of the database online.

[BertTuyt]

I dont want to restart the whole Database Copyright disussion but .......

For my learning algorithm, I rely (for the moment) on games from the TD Database, and as im a legal owner I dont have an issue (nor Klaas most likely).
However I find the filter and output options which are now present in the program unsufficient, and for this reason I have developed DQL (Draughts Query Language).
Altough I could export the TD Database to PDN, and then process this information (or use another compression format), I direcly access the current TD Database.
For this reason I tried to understand the basics of the TD format (which so far is proprietary). I guess that in general "reverse engineer file formats for the purpose of interoperability" is (at least) specifically legally allowed in Europe (article 6 EU software convention).

So it would help me, and also others if they want to embed TD DB reading options, that Klaas publish the TD Format (most of the internal TD format I understand nowadays). It would also enable others to develop third party extentions, which also could be used for the TD Program, which (for known reasons) show little progress in the last years.

Bert

[BertTuyt]

Herewith a few (=2) screenshots regarding the TD Options which are now embedded in the Damage GUI.

Damage is able to read a TD Database (.cgd file).
As the TD format is proprietary, I have not captured all details regarding the new format (which includes comments, and multiple variants). But normal games can be read.

So far I tested this with the Demogames.cgd file, as this contains not some many entries. With the MFC ListCtrl I used, the program seem to crash with too many entries (so couldnt use my legal mega2005.cgd file). So i need to think how to solve this.

The mega2005.cgd file however seems to work in combination with DQL search.

In the second screenshot I analysed the game Doop-KLoosterziel.
The graph and the Movelist show that the move 17. 40-35 was definitely wrong.
One sees one error in the picture as the Game index has a weird number.

Bert